Hal Abelson 访谈 - InfiniteHistoryProject MIT

INTERVIEWER: Today is August 23, 2011.

采访者：今天是 2011 年 8 月 23 日。

I'm Chris Boebel.

我是 Chris Boebel。

As part of the MIT150 Infinite History project, we're talking with professor Hal Abelson.

作为“麻省理工学院 150 年无限历史项目” 的一部分，我们正在与 Hal Abelson 教授进行访谈。

Professor Abelson is the Class of 1922 professor of electrical engineering and computer science at MIT.

Abelson 教授是麻省理工学院（MIT）1922 （原文如此）届电气工程与计算机科学教授。

He holds an AB degree from Princeton University and a PhD degree in mathematics from MIT.

他拥有普林斯顿大学的文学学士学位和麻省理工学院的数学博士学位。

In 1992, Abelson was designated as one of MIT's six inaugural MacVicar Faculty Fellows.

1992 年，Abelson 被任命为麻省理工学院首批六位 MacVicar 教师研究员之一。

Professor Abelson is co-director of the MIT-Microsoft iCampus Research Alliance in educational technology.

Abelson 教授是 MIT-微软 iCampus 教育技术研究联盟的联合主任。

He's co-chair of the MIT Council on Educational Technology.

他是麻省理工学院教育技术委员会（MIT Council on Educational Technology） 的共同主席。

And he serves on the steering committee of the HP-MIT Alliance.

同时也在惠普-麻省理工学院（HP-MIT） 联盟的指导委员会任职。

He has played key roles in fostering MIT institutional initiatives such as MIT OpenCourseWare and DSpace.

他在推动麻省理工学院的院校倡议中发挥了关键作用，例如 MIT OpenCourseWare 和 DSpace。

Hal, thanks very much for taking the time--

Hal，非常感谢您能抽出时间——

ABELSON: Sure.

ABELSON：没问题。

INTERVIEWER: --to talk today.

采访者：——参加今天的谈话。

So let's start at the beginning.

那么让我们从头开始吧。

ABELSON: The beginning?

ABELSON：从头开始？

INTERVIEWER: The beginning.

采访者：是的，从头开始。

Just start by telling me a little bit about where you grew up and the early years?

请先跟我聊聊您是在哪里长大的， 以及早年的生活？

ABELSON: So the real early years, I grew up on a chicken farm in central New Jersey.

ABELSON：真正的早年时期，我是在新泽西州中部的一个养鸡场长大的。

My parents worked on the farm.

我的父母在农场工作。

My father later went and worked in the post office.

我父亲后来去了邮局工作。

I was the first one in my family to go to college, although my parents were always very, very interested in education.

我是家里第一个上大学的人， 但是我的父母一直对教育非常、非常感兴趣。

My parents liked music, education.

我的父母喜欢音乐和教育。

I had an uncle who sort of was the college person, who worked for Exxon and had a high level position there.

我有一位叔叔算是家里读过大学的人，他在 Exxon（埃克森公司）工作并担任高管。

So we always cared a lot about education.

所以我们一直非常重视教育。

I'm not quite sure where I glommed onto math and science.

我不太确定自己是从哪里开始迷上数学和科学的。

I remember when I was I guess 12 or 13, I decided I wanted to be a physicist, mostly because I think I liked the word.

我记得大概在十二三岁的时候，我决定我想成为一名物理学家，主要是因为我喜欢这个词。

But I didn't know what that was.

但我当时并不了解那究竟是什么。

I did sort of okay in school.

我在学校的表现还算可以。

When I talk to kids these days, I remind them that when I was their age in seventh or eighth grade, I was getting D's in mathematics.

如今我和孩子们交谈时，会提醒他们，当我像他们那么大，读七八年级的时候，我的数学成绩是 D。

In fact, like a lot of people who end up going into computers, we are really bad at doing arithmetic.

事实上，就像许多最终进入计算机领域的人一样，我们其实非常不擅长算术。

Someone once said the reason a lot of people go into computers is to make up for their own handicaps in doing that.

有人曾说，很多人进入计算机领域的原因是为了弥补自己在这方面的不足。

So I wasn't particularly good in any of those subjects early on.

所以早期我在这些科目上表现得并不是特别好。

And then about the time I got in high school, I started being good at it.

然后大约到了上高中的时候，我开始变得擅长这些了。

One of the things the school did, they hired somebody to help me learn calculus because of course our school did nothing like that.

学校当时做的一件事是雇人来教我微积分，因为我们学校当然没有这样的课程。

And I don't know, sort of grew a lot of interest in math and science from there.

然后不知怎的，我从那时起开始对数学和科学产生了浓厚的兴趣。

So at some point I said gee, I don't want to be a physicist anymore.

所以在某个时刻，我说，哎呀，我不再想当物理学家了。

I want to be a mathematician because I guess that word sounded better.

我想成为一名数学家，因为我觉得这个词听起来更棒。

And then I got into Princeton on a scholarship, which was nice because my family could never have afforded anything like that.

后来我拿了奖学金进入普林斯顿大学，那样很好， 因为我的家庭根本负担不起那样的事情。

And did pretty well at Princeton.

我在普林斯顿表现得相当不错。

Started getting interested in a subject called algebraic topology.

我开始对一门叫作代数拓扑（algebraic topology）的学科产生兴趣。

And then got into MIT graduate school on that.

凭借这个研究方向，被 MIT 研究生院录取。

And ended up coming to graduate school at MIT mostly because my wife and I were looking for places we could both go.

最终决定来 MIT 读研，主要是因为我和妻子当时在寻找两人都能去的地方。

We weren't married then, but she was looking for a place where she could go.

那时我们还没结婚，但她在找一个她能去的地方。

She got into BU's School of Social Work.

她去了 BU（波士顿大学）的社会工作学院。

I got into MIT.

我去了 MIT。

MIT also had a draft deferment.

MIT 当时还提供兵役缓征。

So back in ancient days, one of the things that you wanted to do was if you were worried that getting drafted to go to the Vietnam War, so MIT did something where I think because I was teaching or something like that, there was a category of draft deferment you could get.

所以在那个久远的年代，假如你担心被征召参加越南战争，你想做的事情之一就是， MIT 有个政策，应该是因为我在做教学或类似的工作，你可以获得某类兵役缓征。

So we ended up coming to MIT.

所以我们最终来到了 MIT。

And MIT was just absolutely an fascinating place.

MIT 绝对是一个非常迷人的地方。

One of the nicest things, when I first showed up at MIT, we lived in Westgate.

最美好的事情之一是，当我刚来到 MIT 时，我们住在 Westgate。

And one of the great memories that we had of being in Westgate was looking down over the field and at the other end of the field, seeing the tear gas on Mass Ave. Because that was the time when even MIT students were protesting stuff.

在 Westgate 最棒的回忆之一就是俯瞰球场，在另一端，看到麻省大道（Mass Ave.）上的催泪瓦斯。因为那是连 MIT 的学生都在抗议的时代。

They were protesting, for anybody who remembers, Draper Labs used to be called the Institute Labs.

他们抗议的是，如果有人还记得的话， Draper 实验室曾经叫学院实验室。

And there was a protest about how is it that on the MIT campus, there was classified research related to the Vietnam War?

抗议的内容是，为什么 MIT 的校园里， 会有与越南战争相关的机密研究？

It was just sort of wonderful.

那真实挺奇妙的。

Just marvelous to be here and look through this thing.

人在这里，目睹这一切，真是不可思议。

And what do I remember of MIT?

我对 MIT 还有什么记忆呢？

I remember going up to the door on 77 Mass Ave. And gosh, they were automatic doors.

我记得走到麻省大道 77 号的大门前。天哪， 那是自动门。

And coming from Princeton, which is an ivy covered--

我是从普林斯顿来的， 那里是常春藤覆盖的——

it's the last thing in the world you would ever imagine like that.

这是世界上你最没法想象到的东西。

And then there were these long, long halls.

然后就是这些长长的走廊。

And I always had these visions of getting on roller skates and going down the halls these automatic doors.

我总是幻想穿着旱冰鞋滑过长廊、 穿过那些自动门的画面。

It was just a wild place.

那真是一个疯狂的地方。

It was all one building.

整个学院就是一栋连在一起的大楼。

I didn't know quite what to make of it.

我当时不知道该怎么理解它。

But then early on, it could have been a couple of weeks after I got here, the Students for a Democratic Society, if anyone remembers that from the '60s, that was the campus activist organization.

但是不久之后，可能是我到这里几周后，学生争取民主社会组织（Students for a Democratic Society），如果还有人记得 60 年代那会，那是当时的校园激进组织。

It took over the President's Office.

它占领了校长办公室。

And they did this great thing.

他们干了件很棒的事情。

They had open house at the President's Office.

他们在校长办公室搞了个开放日。

And they were sitting there replaying the tapes so they could see what was typed on the electric typewriters in President Howard Johnson's office.

他们坐在那儿重放磁带，这样就能看到 Howard Johnson 校长办公室里的电动打字机上打了什么。

And they held open house.

而且还举行了开放日。

And I said, hey, I'm a new graduate student.

我想，嘿，我是新入学的研究生。

I'm never in my life, ever going to be able to walk into the MIT's President's Office.

我这辈子都不会有机会走进 MIT 的校长办公室。

So let me go sit around and see what's in the President's Office.

所以让我去坐坐，看看校长办公室里都有什么。

So we walk in.

所以我们走了进去。

And there were a bunch of students kind of sitting on the floor of the President's Office.

有一群学生就坐在校长办公室的地板上。

And I see a guy that I'd been to high school with, who I knew had gone to MIT, but we'd had no contact since then.

我看到一个以前一起上高中的人，我知道他去了 MIT，但后来就没有联系过了。

And I went up to him and said hi.

我走过去向他打招呼。

Gee, hi, Ronnie.

哎呀，嗨，Ronnie。

This is sort of really nice.

这真是太巧了。

And he says, what are you doing?

他说，你来做什么？

And I said, I'm a new graduate student.

我说，我是新来的研究生。

I'm looking for what to do.

我在找事情做。

What's interesting to do around here?

这儿有什么有意思的事情可以做吗？

And he said, oh, why don't you go over to the Artificial Intelligence Lab.

他说，哦，你不去人工智能实验室（Artificial Intelligence Lab） 看看吗？

I hear they're doing interesting stuff.

我听说他们在做一些有意思的事情。

So I wandered over there and talked to some people.

于是我溜达过去，和一些人聊了聊。

And that's essentially how I got into computer science and AI and all the stuff I'm doing now.

基本上，这就是我如何进入计算机科学、人工智能（AI）领域， 以及我现在所做的一切的。

And I like to tell that story to students who worry about what they're going to do when they grow up.

我喜欢把这个故事讲给那些担心长大后要做什么的学生听。

Because I like to tell them it will be random, and you have no idea.

因为我想告诉他们，一切都是随机的， 你根本无法预料。

But at some point, some totally random thing will happen that will have a tremendous influence.

但在某个时候，会发生一些完全随机的事情，并产生巨大的影响。

So don't worry about it too much.

所以不要太担心。

INTERVIEWER: So backing up for just a moment, had you done work in computer science before that at Princeton, or even previously?

采访者：那么稍微回溯一下，你在那之前在普林斯顿， 甚至更早之前，做过计算机科学方面的工作吗？

How did you first--

你最初是怎么——

ABELSON: Yeah.

ABELSON：对的。

At Princeton I did--

在普林斯顿，我——

well, there sort of wasn't a computer science major then.

呃，那时候还没有计算机科学专业。

In fact, I'm not even sure there was one at MIT when I showed up.

其实，我都不确定我当初来到 MIT 时有没有这个专业。

But at Princeton, a bunch of us worked in the computer center.

但在普林斯顿，我们一群人在计算机中心工作。

And the Princeton Computer Center had an IBM--

普林斯顿计算机中心有一台 IBM ——

I think a 7.090 or 7.10.

应该是 7.090 或 7.10。

It got one of the first 3.60s.

它搞到了最早的 3.60 之一。

And they were working on this very weird thing called time sharing.

他们当时在研究一种非常奇怪的东西， 叫作分时系统（time sharing）。

And a bunch of us went around and messed around with that and did what most of Princeton considered to be a totally worthless, stupid thing with computers, which is actually using it for text processing.

我们一群人在上面四处摆弄，捣鼓普林斯顿大多数人认为是完全不值得用计算机做的蠢事——那就是用它进行文本处理。

Because everyone knew that what computers were really for were solving big complicated equations.

因为那时众所周知，计算机真正的用途是求解复杂大型方程式。

And the computer center used to take down the system a couple of hours each week and let those of us who wanted to screw around and waste time, play with this text editing thing.

计算机中心以前每周会停机几个小时， 让我们那些想要瞎胡闹、浪费时间的家伙去摆弄这种文本编辑玩意儿。

Get tremendous complaints from the astrophysics department because people had to stop trying to solve on science equations.

结果受到了天体物理学系的巨量投诉， 因为他们被迫停下来对科学方程式的求解尝试。

So I became one of the people who were messing around with that.

所以，我成了那些瞎鼓捣这东西的人之一。

And I became a little bit of a consultant, an undergraduate consultant in the computer system, teaching people to migrate their programs from FORTRAN to a language that IBM and a couple of other places were pushing then called PL/1, a very modest name, Programming Language 1.

我后来有点像顾问，读本科的计算机系统顾问， 教人们把他们的程序从 FORTRAN 迁移到 IBM 和其他一些地方当时推崇的语言， 叫作 PL/1，一个非常谦虚的名字， “编程语言 1”。

And this was supposed to be the be all and end all of the new computer stuff.

在设想中，它应该是一个终极解决方案， 不再需要其它的计算机创新了。

And there was a big move to say you should translate all your programs into PL/1.

当时有一种趋势，主张你应该将所有的程序都转换成 PL/1。

So I became one of what was called the PL/1 kids and would consult with faculty in the other departments about how to modify their programs.

所以我成了所谓的“PL/1 小子”之一， 为其他部门的教职员工提供咨询，看怎么修改他们的程序。

So I had some stuff in computing and I knew about that.

所以我确实接触过一些计算方面的东西， 也有所自知。

I knew very little about what I actually went into at MIT.

对于我后来在 MIT 真正从事的领域，我当时知之甚少。

But it was a background in computers, enough to walk into the AI Lab and do interesting things.

但那段计算机背景足以让我走进 AI Lab 去做些有趣的事情。

INTERVIEWER: But at the time you came to MIT, initially there was not a sense that you would be moving in that direction?

采访者：但你来 MIT 的时候， 最初并没有感觉到你会朝那个方向发展？

ABELSON: No, I was in the math department.

ABELSON：没有，我当时在数学系。

And I was a graduate student in the math department, became an instructor in the math department after that, and only moved into computing later on because some of the work I was doing in topology was related to distributed computing.

我是数学系的研究生，之后在数学系担任讲师，后来才转向计算领域， 因为我当时从事的一部分拓扑学（topology）工作与分布式计算有关。

And then sort of the topology part of it atrophied and the computing part of it grew.

后来，拓扑学的部分逐渐退化， 计算的部分不断增长。

And eventually when into computer science.

最终我进入了计算机科学。

INTERVIEWER: So you mentioned the AI Lab.

采访者：你提到了 AI 实验室。

Talk a bit more about working there and also you worked with Seymour Papert in the Logo Lab as well, right?

多聊聊在那儿工作的情况，而且你还和 Seymour Papert 在 Logo 实验室共事过，对吧？

ABELSON: Well, that's actually how I started in the AI Lab.

ABELSON：噢，那其实是我在 AI Lab 的起点。

For some reason I went--

出于某种原因，我去了——

there was an early Logo presentation called I think Teaching Children Thinking, which was in 26-100.

当时有一场早期的 Logo 演示，我记得题目是《教孩子思考》 （Teaching Children Thinking），在 26-100 教室举行。

And it was this big thing where Seymour Papert and his assistant for many years, Cynthia Solomon, talked about the Logo computer language and showed the Logo turtle.

那是一场盛会，Seymour Papert 和他多年的助手 Cynthia Solomon 讲解 Logo 计算机语言，并展示了 Logo 海龟。

And I looked at it and it was pretty fascinating.

我看到它，觉得非常迷人。

And pretty wild.

也非常大胆。

I remember later on reading a report from a journalist who's been there.

我记得后来读到一位去过现场的记者的报道。

And her mind was just blown about this notion that children should do these weird robot things.

她觉得大为震撼，对孩子们应该做这些奇怪的机器人玩意的想法。

And I remember her saying, I looked at this thing and I thought these people were witches.

我记得她说，看着这玩意儿，我觉得这群人是巫师。

But anyway, I thought they were cool, whether they were witches or not.

但无论如何，不管他们是不是巫师，我觉得他们很酷。

And I walked over to the AI Lab, looking for something to do.

于是我走到 AI 实验室， 找点事情做。

And walked into the elevator.

然后我上了电梯。

And then elevator stopped at one of the floors and then Seymour got in.

电梯停在了某一层，Seymour 走了进来。

And I said, hi, I like your stuff.

我说，嗨，我喜欢你做的东西。

I'm a new graduate student.

我是新来的研究生。

Can I work for you?

我能给你干活吗？

And he said, yeah.

他说，好啊。

And that's how I got into this whole business.

这就是我进入整个这些事情的经过。

So another bunch of random events.

所以又是一连串的随机事件。

INTERVIEWER: So you've talked a little bit about what it was like coming to MIT in the late 1960s, what your impression was of the campus.

采访者：您刚才谈到了 1960 年代末来到 MIT 的情况，以及您对校园的印象。

But give me a little bit more information about sort of the culture and the environment at that time.

但请再多给我一些关于当时文化和环境的信息吧。

I mean obviously it differed as you've said from Princeton and was unlike other things you'd seen.

我的意思是，正如您所说显然它与普林斯顿不同， 也与您见过的其他事物都不同。

ABELSON: Well to me, it was really strange.

ABELSON：嗯，对我来说，这真的很奇怪。

I mean MIT is such a big complicated place.

我是说，MIT 是一个如此庞大且复杂的地方。

I've often thought that well, after being here about 20 years I finally got the ability to think of the place as a whole place.

我经常想，在这里待了大约 20 年后，我才终于能把这里看作一个整体。

And I just don't even know how it's possible to do that because there are just so many things going on and it's so complicated.

我甚至不知道如何才能做到这一点， 因为同时发生的事太多， 太复杂了。

But my impression from Princeton is that it was very strange and very regimented.

但是从普林斯顿来的印象是，它非常奇怪，非常刻板。

So I remember hearing about the Experimental Study Group.

我记得听人说“实验学习小组” （Experimental Study Group，ESG）的时候。

So what people told me about the Experimental Study Group was that it was a place where you could learn on your own and do stuff that's independently and it was very open.

他们告诉我，实验学习小组是一个你可以自学、 独立做事的地方， 非常开放。

And I remember going over that, because I had some friends who were in the ESG.

我记得我去那边看了，因为我有一些朋友在 ESG 里。

So what do you do here?

“所以你们在这里做什么？”

What do you do that's independent?

“哪些事情是可以独立做的呢？”

And they said something like, well we get to take the standard course curriculum, but we get to study it by ourselves.

他们大概说，“嗯，我们可以修读标准的课程大纲，但我们可以自学。”

And I just remember breaking down laughing.

我就记得我当时笑惨了。

I said, that's this place's idea of what independent learning is?

我说，这就是这个地方对 “独立学习”的理解吗？

Because I'd been in a program at Princeton, a very '60s program, I think even Princeton stop doing it, where they admitted you.

因为我曾参加过普林斯顿的一个项目，一个非常有 60 年代特殊的项目，哪怕是普林斯顿也不这么干了， 他们录取你。

And they said hey, you're a bunch of smart people.

然后说，嘿，你们是一群聪明人。

You have no requirements.

你们没有课程要求。

You had department requirements.

你们有系里的要求。

But the rest of the time, Princeton's a big place, take what you want.

但剩下的时间里，普林斯顿是个大地方， 想学什么就学什么吧。

And all of the standard things you'd call distribution requirements or university requirements are just abolished for you.

所有那些所谓标准，比如通识要求、 学校必修要求，对你们都取消了。

Some of us totally exploited it.

我们有些人把这点利用得相当彻底。

Some of us had a great time.

有些人过得非常愉快。

I ended up with a couple of friends essentially living as graduate students in the math department.

我最终和几个朋友基本上是以研究生的身份生活在数学系里。

But coming from there to MIT, it was this sense of being regimented and precise.

但从那里来到 MIT，感受到的是严格管理、精确规范。

Later I've come to identify that as an engineering culture.

后来我逐渐将那认定为一种工程文化。

I see the same thing happening at Google, because I've been spending time at Google.

我在谷歌也看到了同样的情况，因为我最近在 Google 待着。

So you see this culture and you love it.

所以你看到这种文化，而且会爱上它。

I mean I just love engineer's culture.

我的意思是，我真的很喜欢工程师文化。

I'm an engineer and I do that.

我是一个工程师，我就是这么做事的。

But one of the characteristics of an engineer's culture is you sort of sit and you say, what's the problem, what are you're trying to do?

但工程文化有个特点：你会坐下来说，问题是什么， 你要做什么？

And then about three seconds later you say okay, what's the solution?

然后大约三秒钟后你会说： 好吧，解决方案是什么？

And you think for about two minutes and you figure out the solution.

然后你再想上两分钟，就把解决方案想出来了。

And then you just drive to that solution as fast you can.

然后你就会以最快的速度朝着那个解决方案推进。

And looking back, I recognize that's how I reacted to MIT.

回过头来看，我意识到这正是我当初对 MIT 的反应方式。

So there was no sense that the requirements were wrong or any of that.

所以当时并没有觉得必修要求是错误的或诸如此类的想法。

It was just we figured out this is the way to do it.

只是我们搞清楚了这事就该这么做。

And now we are just going to drive to that as effectively as we can.

那现在我们只需要尽可能高效地实现它。

And MIT's kind of like that.

MIT 就是这样。

And there are wonderful parts about that.

那里面有很美好的部分。

And there are sort of bad part of that.

也有不太好的部分。

INTERVIEWER: Tell me a bit more about working with Seymour Papert.

采访者：请再多跟我讲讲你和 Seymour Papert 共事的经历吧。

What was that like?

那是种怎样的体验？

ABELSON: Well, Seymour was, is amazing.

ABELSON：嗯，Seymour 过去是、现在依然是，非常了不起的人。

So I guess people know that tragically he was very severely injured in Vietnam.

我想大家知道，很不幸他在 Vietnam 受了非常严重的伤。

And his brain was very affected.

他的大脑受到了严重影响。

And he's under rehabilitation now.

他现在正在接受康复治疗。

But Seymour was just absolutely amazing--

但是 Seymour 真的是非常非常了不起——

I mean his childlike sense of wonder at learning.

我是指他那孩子般对学习的好奇。

And what Seymour really is about is learning.

Seymour 真正关注的是学习本身。

So people talk about computing and people talk about math.

人们谈论计算，人们谈论数学。

But with Seymour you are just surrounded by this joy of being able to learn.

但在 Seymour 身边，你会沉浸在 “能够学习”本身的喜悦当中。

So it's not just math and things.

所以这不仅仅是数学之类的事情。

It's things like, he taught himself when we were there how to work on the bongo board.

比如，我们在的时候，他自学了如何玩平衡板（bongo board）。

There's some old AI Lab historic tapes of Seymour doing the bongo board.

有一些旧的 AI Lab 历史录像带记录了 Seymour 玩平衡板的画面。

And what he loved was to explain to people how you thought about how to balance on the bongo board.

他热衷向人们解释，你是如何思考怎样在平衡板上保持平衡的。

He also did it with juggling.

对于抛接球戏法也是同样。

So he sort of had a tremendous--

他做了特别棒的——

teaching people to juggle.

教人如何抛接球。

And his idea was that you could think about that.

他的想法是，你是可以去思考这件事的。

There was a method for thinking about how you juggle.

抛接球戏法是有思考的方法的。

So this thing that looked like a very complicated thing that a circus person was doing, it almost magic, you could actually teach it.

所以这件看起来非常复杂、仿佛马戏团演员似的、 几乎像魔法一样的事情，实际上是可以教授的。

And everything he did was infused with that.

他所做的一切都充满这种精神。

I remember going to visit him in Maine.

我记得有一次去缅因州（Maine）拜访他。

And he wrote this map.

他画了张地图。

And the map, you could tell that he enjoyed writing the directions on this map in a way that people would understand them.

从这张地图上，你可以看出他很享受用一种人们能理解的方式来写下路线指引。

And of course that went over into math and science.

当然，这也延伸到了数学和科学领域。

So he had exactly the same philosophy that learning about math and science isn't magic.

他秉持着完全相同的哲学，认为学习数学和科学并不是魔法。

There's a deliberate, in his way, procedural way of thinking about knowledge and about learning.

有一种刻意的，他那种，过程化的方式来思考知识和学习。

Another critical part of that is the notion of debugging.

其中另一个关键部分是调试（debugging）的概念。

So there's this idea that you do something, and you make a mistake.

有这样一种想法：你在做某件事， 然后犯了一个错误。

And he would always totally emphasize that mistakes are wonderful.

他总会全力强调错误是美妙的。

Bugs are just great because that allows you to go back and analyze and think about stuff.

Bug（程序错误）非常棒，因为它们让你能回过头去分析和思考。

And all of that influence went not only in my own work in education, but also in the computer science work that Gerry Sussman and I did.

所有这些影响不仅体现在我自己的教育工作中， 也体现在我与 Gerry Sussman 合作的计算机科学工作中。

There's this thing called the procedural explanation of knowledge.

有一种被称为“知识的过程性解释”的东西。

One critical thing in teaching people ideas, whether in computer science or anything, is to give them names and to use those names and things.

在传授理念时，无论是在计算机科学还是其他领域，一个关键点是给它们命名，然后运用这些名称和想法。

And that goes right through all of our work in the Scheme programming language and our work in making MIT's first computer science course.

这一点贯穿在我们在 Scheme 编程语言的全部工作， 以及我们创建 MIT 首门计算机科学课程的工作中。

It goes absolutely, directly back to Seymour.

这绝对能直接追溯到 Seymour。

INTERVIEWER: Were there other key mentors or professors that influenced your development, your intellectual or your professional development as a graduate student.

采访者：作为研究生，是否还有其他关键的导师或教授影响了您的发展， 智识上或者职业上的发展？

ABELSON: Oh well, sure.

ABELSON：噢，那是肯定的。

I mean I wasn't a graduate student in computer science.

我是说，我当时并不是计算机科学系的研究生。

I didn't work for Seymour as a research instructor.

我也不是以研究讲师的身份为 Seymour 工作的。

My research was actually in mathematics under Dennis Sullivan, who is a very, very famous topologist, who was in the math department at MIT in those days.

我的研究实际上是在数学系，师从 Dennis Sullivan，他是一位非常、非常著名的拓扑学家， 当时在 MIT 数学系任教。

And again, he was a little bit different.

同样地，他也有点与众不同。

Dennis was one of these mathematicians who's just magic.

Dennis 是那种魔法一样的数学家。

You look at this thing and you say how could this guy possibly have ever thought about this stuff?

你看他的成果会说，这家伙怎么可能能想到这种东西的？

And he was just an enormous influence about--

他对我产生了巨大的影响，在——

just sort of this intellectual excellence where the stuff springs from nowhere.

那种智识上的卓越，想法无中生有地涌现出来。

And you're just inspired that way.

这样就是会让你深受启发。

INTERVIEWER: So tell me a little bit more about your professional path from mathematics to computer science and from getting a PhD at MIT to being a professor at MIT?

采访者：那么，请多讲讲你的职业发展轨迹， 从数学到计算机科学，以及从在 MIT 获得博士学位到成为 MIT 教授的过程？

ABELSON: Oh, sure.

ABELSON：哦，当然可以。

Well when I got a PhD, I was in the math department doing topology.

嗯，我获得博士学位的时候，是在数学系做拓扑学（topology）。

Got an appointment as an instructor.

后来被任命为讲师（instructor）。

But then because I was working in Logo, MIT started something in the mid-'70s called the Division for Study in Research and Education.

但后来由于，我在从事 Logo 方面的工作，MIT 在 70 年代中期成立了一个名为"科研与教育研究部"（Division for Study in Research and Education， 简称 DSRE）的机构。

And it had a couple of key pieces to it.

它有几个关键组成部分。

There were three leaders.

有三位负责人。

One was Ben Snyder, who wrote a very famous book at MIT called The Hidden Curriculum, which is all about how surviving at MIT is a process of constant triage.

一位是 Ben Snyder，他写了一本在 MIT 非常有名的书，叫做《隐藏的课程》（The Hidden Curriculum）， 讲的是在 MIT 生存是一个不断取舍的过程。

And students at MIT have to learn that.

MIT 的学生必须了解这一点。

One's Don Schon, who was in the Sloan School, who was very famous for his theories of knowledge or ideas of espoused knowledge and how you do things.

一位是 Don Schon，他在斯隆学院（Sloan School）， 以他的知识理论，或说“信奉知识”（espoused knowledge） 与实际行动之间关系的思想而闻名。

And the third one which was Seymour doing Logo.

第三个是 Seymour，做 Logo 相关的工作。

So I became part of the Division for Study in Research and Education.

于是，我成为了科研与教育研究部的一员。

Got a joint appointment in math and DSRE.

获得了数学系和 DSRE 的联合职务。

And that's where we sort of really started to do Logo work as sort of real MIT research kind of stuff.

在那儿，我们开始真正将 Logo 工作作为 MIT 的正式研究项目来开展。

But then eventually what happens, MIT decided to close down DSRE.

但最终发生的情况是，MIT 决定解散 DSRE。

I was sort of too junior then to understand or even be aware of the politics behind that.

我当时资历太浅，还无法理解甚至没意识到这背后的政治因素。

But in any case, MIT decided to close it down.

但无论如何，MIT 决定关闭它。

And then I moved into the electrical engineering computer science department, kind of on the basis of the Logo work and the basis of the fact that I was doing distributed computing.

然后我进入了电气工程与计算机科学系，大概是因为 Logo 上的工作，也因为当时我正在做分布式计算。

And that's sort of where I've been sitting.

后来我就一直在那里。

INTERVIEWER: So tell me a bit more about the early Logo work and your work in distributed computing and how that has sort of influenced your research path since?

采访者：那么，请多讲讲早期的 Logo 工作以及你在分布式计算方面的工作，这些是如何影响你此后的研究道路的？

ABELSON: Well, I don't actually think about Logo and distributed computing together very much.

ABELSON：嗯，我其实不太把 Logo 和分布式计算放在一起考虑。

INTERVIEWER: Well, we can treat it separately I suppose.

采访者：那，我想我们可以分开来谈。

ABELSON: Other than they kind of both end up being a vision of computing and being formal about it and things.

ABELSON：除了它们最后都成为了对计算的某种愿景，而且都很形式化等等。

The Logo work was as I said, magic.

Logo 的工作就像我说的，是魔法。

It is really hard right now to go back.

现在很难回到那个时代了。

We're talking a dozen years before the personal computer.

我们在谈论的是个人计算机出现前的十几年的事情。

What we used to say in Logo is oh my god, if a computer could just cost $10,000, that would revolutionize all of education.

我们以前做 Logo 的时候经常说，老天爷，如果一台电脑只要 1 万美元， 那必将对教育产生彻底变革。

Because what we were doing is these were million machines, a million dollars in 1968 dollars.

因为那时我们用的是几百万美元的机器， 1968 年的几百万。

They were sitting in the Artificial Intelligence Lab, doing the world's very best, fanciest research an artificial intelligence.

它们放在人工智能实验室里， 做着世界上最顶尖、最前沿的人工智能研究。

And we were hooking them up over phone lines to be used by sixth graders in Lexington, Massachusetts.

而我们却把它们连上电话线，供马萨诸塞州列克星敦的六年级学生使用。

And just a totally outrageous thing.

离谱至极的事情。

One my first projects as a graduate student was working on a remote display that you could hook up that could sit in Lexington and move over a phone line.

我作为研究生的第一个项目之一，就是做一种可以连接的远程显示器，它可以放在列克星敦，通过电话线传输。

And so students could write what was effectively the first Logo turtle and draw designs on this graphics display.

让学生们能编写出事实上的第一个 Logo 海龟程序，在这个图形显示器上绘制图案。

So that was like my first job as a graduate student, implementing that.

那是我作为研究生的第一份工作， 实现那个东西。

But it was so off scale.

但它太超出常规了。

Just the very idea that a computer would be something that a kid could use.

就是这个“计算机要让孩子能用”的想法。

We take it so it for granted now that it's almost impossible to put yourself in that mindset.

我们现在对此习以为常，以至于几乎不可能代入那种思维模式当中。

So most people thought we were crazy, because I mean what a weird thing.

大多数人觉得我们疯了，因为我是说， 这事太奇怪了。

Why could a computer ever be something that would be relevant to a kid, much less programming it or anything?

计算机怎么可能与儿童相关， 更别说去给它编程了。

And it was a mixture of what happened in the AI Lab.

这些混在一起，发生在人工智能实验室里。

Every couple of weeks somebody would run in off the street saying, I want to see the robots.

每隔几周就会有人从街上跑进来，说， 我想看看机器人。

You're making robots.

你们在造机器人。

I want to come see them.

我想要来看看它们。

And AI Lab was just a wonderful mixture of that.

当时的 AI 实验室就是那些的奇妙混合体。

So it was run by Seymour Papert and of course Marvin Minsky, who are just two completely brilliant people with I think a real sense of faith, in that if you're surrounded by a lot of smart people and you give them a lot of freedom and your job is really to inspire people, it will do great things.

它由 Seymour Papert 领导，当然还有 Marvin Minsky，他们是两位极其杰出人， 我认为他们真正有一种信念，如果你身边围绕着一群聪明人，给他们充分的自由， 你的工作实际是去启发他们，这样就能做出伟大的成就。

And the AI Lab was just infused with that.

人工智能实验室充满了这种理念。

There was just a tremendous sense of community among the AI researchers, which was partly true because it was pretty small.

人工智能研究人员之间有种强烈的社区意识，一部分原因是因为它相当小。

One of the things that's happened more recently is that merged with the Lab for Computer Science.

更近一些的时候，它与计算机科学实验室合并了。

And it doesn't have that same real sense of community and flexibility.

它不再有之前那种真正的社区意识和灵活性了。

But the original AI Lab, there have been a much of books written about it, all sorts of things emerged from that.

但是原来的人工智能实验室，已经有很多书写过了，各种各样的成功都起源于这些特点。

The other thing that emerged from that, that maybe you want to talk about later is Richard Solomon and the whole free software movement, which these days is better known as the Open Source Movement.

另一件源于这些特点的事情，也许你之后会想谈到，是 Richard Stallman 和整个自由软件运动，如今它更为人所知的名称是开源运动。

But that was a thing--

但那是一件——

I mean in a deep sense it had to do with computer science, but not obviously.

我是说，在深层意义上它与计算机科学有关， 但并不是很明显。

But it's a whole kind of philosophy that grew out of this sense that technology is fundamentally a data community and fundamentally about a whole bunch of inspired people sharing and building on each other's work.

它是一整套哲学，源于一种观念，认为技术本质上是一个数据社区，本质上是关于一群受启发的人彼此分享、在他人工作的基础上继续构建的事情。

And that of course goes way past software into things like Creative Commons and lots of the stuff that we see now.

而这一点远远超出了软件领域，延伸到了像知识共享（Creative Commons） 以及我们今天看到的许多事物中。

But it came out of that germ of sharing around a technology community.

但它起源于技术社区中分享的萌芽。

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I want to definitely in a little bit explore some of these broader ideas in their current form.

采访者：是的，我肯定想要探讨下在当下形态中的这些更宽泛的理念。

But let's talk a bit about that culture of sharing and of open networks within MIT at that point.

但让我们先谈谈那时 MIT 里的那种共享和开放网络文化吧。

I mean I've read that obviously there's a whole sort of different landscape of security and passwords or lack thereof.

我的意思是我读到过，显然当时的安全和密码体系，或者说它们的缺失， 和现在截然不同。

But just describe the environment a bit more at that time and how obviously it had effects later.

但请再多描述下当时的环境，以及它是如何显而易见地对后来产生影响的。

ABELSON: Well remember for thinking about now, the internet--

ABELSON：嗯，要知道站在现在的角度，互联网——

it wasn't an internet then-- the ARPANET was a small place.

那时还称不上互联网——ARPANET 是一个很小的地方。

And it really was a very small, very, very homogeneous place.

它真的是一个非常小，非常、 非常同质化的地方。

I like to tell people I've had my email address since I kind of knew all of the people that I could have send email to.

我常常跟人说，自从我几乎认识所有可以互发邮件的人起，我就一直使用这个电子邮件地址。

I mean it's been written a lot that people who originally designed the internet said they just sort of did not design the internet architecture to think that there would be bad guys out there.

我是说有很多记录，最初设计互联网的人们说，他们设计互联网架构时根本没有考虑过那里会有坏人。

Because they knew all the people.

因为他们认识所有的人。

All the people were like them.

所有的人都和他们一样。

And that reflected over in passwords.

这一点也体现在了密码上。

I remember there was one sort of dark day when the people from ARPA said, you need to put passwords on your accounts because they're on the network.

我记得有那么一个“黑暗的日子”，ARPA 的人说， 你们必须给账户加上密码， 因为它们连网了。

And for security, you need to do that.

安全起见，你们必须这样做。

And a whole bunch of us were just convinced this was a horrible idea.

我们一大群人就坚信这是一个糟糕透顶的主意。

I mean what a terrible idea that you'd have to put a password in an account and people could get into it.

我是说，这想法也太糟糕了， 你得在账户上设置密码，才能登录帐号。

I remember Richard Stallman reacted to this by making his password RMS, which was initials.

我记得 Richard Stallman 的反应是把他的密码设为 RMS， 也就是他名字的首字母缩写。

So just jumping ahead a little bit, if you move about 10, 12 years later, my daughter, when she was about oh 14, introduced me to what became known as MUDS or multiplayer games on the internet.

所以稍微快进一点，大约 10 到 12 年后， 我的女儿，大约 14 岁时，向我介绍了一种后来被称为 MUDS 或者互联网多人在线游戏的东西。

I had no idea this thing existed.

我之前完全不知道这种东西的存在。

And I was introduced to this by my, what she then, she probably was maybe about 13.

介绍我看这个的是我的，她当时大概 13 岁左右。

And I come home and she says daddy, do you know there's this thing on the computer that all kids in the whole world can use?

我回到家，她说爸爸，你知道吗， 电脑上有个东西，全世界的孩子都能用？

And I say, gosh no.

我说，老天，不知道。

And she says, I'll show you.

她说，我给你看看。

And she says you have to dial this phone number.

然后她说，你得拨这个电话号码。

So she starts dialing this phone number.

然后她开始拨打这个电话号码。

And I say, oh my god, that's my lab at MIT.

我说，老天爷，那是我在 MIT 的实验室。

That's the terminus server to my lab at MIT.

那是连到 MIT 我的实验室的终端服务器。

And she says yeah, you have this thing.

她说，是啊，你们有这个玩意。

And it types out this funny star or something.

它会打印出奇怪的星号和其他东西。

And now I'm supposed to type R-M-S. And I say, oh my god, you're typing Stallman's password to get into the system.

现在我应该按 R-M-S。我说，老天爷， 你在输入 Stallman 的密码来登入系统。

And she goes from that and starts up playing this game.

然后她就继续下去，开始玩这个游戏。

And it was great.

那感觉太棒了。

She had no idea that this was MIT.

她完全不知道这是 MIT。

She had no idea what RMS meant.

她也不知道 RMS 代表什么。

But there were kids all over the world who were doing this.

但是全世界的孩子们都在这么干。

And that's a little bit of the spirit of sharing and openness and delight that comes from that.

这体现了一点点，那种共享和开放的精神， 以及随之而来的喜悦。

That's just really hard to do now.

现在真的很难再做到了。

Because again, the network is a much less homogeneous place than it used to be.

因为同样，网络已经远远不再是像以前那样同质化的地方了。

But that's a little bit of what that AI Lab kind of spirit I remember, just to give you another little anecdote about that, that's fun.

但它就是一件小事，关于我记忆中人工智能实验室的精神，再给你讲一个小轶事，挺有意思的。

I don't know if you've interviewed Joel Moses?

我不知道你采访过 Joel Moses 吗？

INTERVIEWER: Not personally, but yeah.

采访者：我个人没有，但是我们采访过。

ABELSON: So Joel Moses at that time was the head of the symbolic mathematics project.

ABELSON：Joel Moses 当时是符号数学项目的负责人。

That's really the great thing that he did, before becoming provost, sort of inventing symbolic mathematics.

那真的是他的伟大成就，在他成为教务长之前， 可以说是创造了符号数学。

And there was a whole big dispute between him and one of his ex-students who had gone to Berkeley.

当时他和一位去了 Berkeley 的前学生之间有过一段激烈的争论。

And there was a dispute about who should get access to this Maxima program and should it be licensed and not licensed.

争论的内容是谁能获得这个 Maxima 软件程序的访问权，以及该不该给它加上授权许可。

And there was a fairly heated email exchange that went between Joel and Rich Fateman.

Joel 和 Rich Fateman 之间有一场相当激烈的电子邮件交流。

And of course, everyone could read everybody else's email at that time.

那时理所当然地，每个人可以读到所有其他人的电子邮件。

And they decided that people in the lab were wasting so much time reading Joel's email that they simply translated all of Joel's email to message of the day.

后来他们决定，实验室的人浪费了太多时间看 Joel 的邮件，干脆直接把 Joel 所有的邮件都转换成了每日消息。

So you all saw it when you logged on.

这样你们所有人一登录系统立马就能看到它。

And that's a little bit again, the sense of playfulness and openness and we're all part of this big community and the computer system is a way of empowering that.

这再次体现了一点点，那种玩心和开放的感觉， 我们都是这个大社区的一部分，计算机系统是让它成真的一种方式。

And I do believe that had a whole lot to do especially with the development of time sharing.

我相信所有这些尤其与分时系统（time sharing）的发展有很大关系。

In a sense sort of Bob Fano and Corby Corbato, when they started the time sharing project, it was sort of about technology.

某种意义上说 Bob Fano 和 Corby Corbato， 当他们一开始做分时系统项目时， 基本是关注于技术。

But pretty soon they realized really what they'd done is create a new kind of community.

但很快他们意识到，他们实质上是创造了一种新型社区。

And to their credit they recognized that very, very early and pushed the sense of gee, there's a thing like community.

值得称赞的是，他们很早就认识到了这一点， 并推动了这种观念，哎， 有一种东西叫做社区。

There is an information community.

有一种信息社区。

MIT was one the first places that really did that in a conscious way.

MIT 是最早真正有意识地做到这一点的地方之一。

And again, this all comes out of the same kind of culture of openness.

同样，这一切都源于同样的开放文化。

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, we'll return to the whole question of open networks, Open Source a bit later.

采访者：是的，我们稍后会回到开放网络、 开源的整个问题。

I want to turn a little bit in a different direction and ask a bit about your interest and professional development of teaching computer science, of the development of 6.001 and also your work with Gerald Sussman and the book.

我想稍微换个方向，问问你在计算机科学教学方面的兴趣和职业发展经历，关于 6.001 课程的发展，还有与 Gerald Sussman 的合作以及那本书的工作。

And maybe, I don't know if this is a productive way of leading into it, but it's a question I'm really curious about.

或许，我不确定这是否是个有效的切入点，但这是一个我非常好奇的问题。

You mentioned very early on that when you were growing up, you were bad at arithmetic, but found out later that you were good at math.

你刚才最早提到过，在成长的过程中， 你并不擅长算术，但后来发现自己其实很擅长数学。

And I think that's very fascinating.

我觉得这非常耐人寻味。

How does one think about math in a way that makes that true?

要以何种方式来看待数学，才能让这件事成立的呢？

I mean they're impossible that could be bad at arithmetic, but good at math.

我是说，似乎不可能一个人算术很差但数学很好。

ABELSON: I don't know.

ABELSON：我不知道。

I don't view arithmetic as having very much to do with math in fact.

事实上，我并不认为算术和数学有多大关系。

And I think there are a lot of people in kind of the same boat.

而且我认为很多人都有类似的看法。

Again, there's theories that people who go into these developmental fields are doing it in some sense to make up for their own deficits, to try them.

如前面说的，有一些理论认为，投身于这些发展领域的人，在某种程度上是为了弥补自己的不足，去尝试挑战它们。

So I sort of view it kind of that way.

所以我多少是以这种方式来看待的。

But again, I've always been interested in puzzling out things and explaining things.

但同样如前面说的，我一直都对把事情琢磨透、 把事情讲清楚感兴趣。

I wasn't very much interested in teaching until I, gosh, until I got to MIT in fact.

我曾经对教学并不是很感兴趣，直到我，老天， 直到我来到了 MIT，实际上。

But it was mostly explaining things to myself.

但那更多是把事情解释给我自己听。

Being in a couple of very good summer high school programs, one at University of Notre Dame, which has since moved to Ohio State, which had a long, long, long track record of inspiring people in mathematics.

我参加过几个非常好的高中暑期项目，一个在圣母大学（University of Notre Dame），后来搬到了俄亥俄州， 它在激励人们学习数学方面有着很长，很长， 很长的历史。

One at Cornell, in physics.

另一个在康奈尔大学，是关于物理的。

So that's another kind of educational link that I was exposed to.

所以那是我接触到的另一类与教育有关的连接。

And later, my colleague Andy diSessa and I ran that kind of summer high school program at MIT around computer science and Logo and teaching things.

后来，我和我的同事 Andy diSessa 在 MIT 举办过那种高中暑期项目，围绕计算机科学、 Logo 以及教学来展开。

So I've been interested in education kind of from that perspective.

所以从那个角度来看，我一直都对教育很感兴趣。

I've also played around with computers in education.

我也尝试过将计算机应用于教育。

One of the things I did in the math department was I was teaching linear algebra.

我在数学系做过的一件事是教线性代数的时候。

And I think just for the heck of it, I did what must have been one of the very first MIT computer exercises where students used the Multics computer system in those days to do some exercise at the end of the day about matrices.

我记得只是为了好玩，我设计了应该是 MIT 最早的计算机练习之一，让学生们使用当时的 Multics 计算机系统， 在一天结束时做一些关于矩阵的练习。

Now I didn't know what I was doing.

当时我并不知道自己在做什么。

And it wasn't particularly good and wasn't particularly successful.

它并不是特别出色，也不是特别成功。

But it was kind of foray into saying, gosh these MIT computers might actually get used in courses.

但那是一次初步的尝试说，老天，这些 MIT 的计算机或许真的能用在课程中。

Not much of that happened for a long time after that though.

不过在那之后很长一段时间里，没有太多类似的事情。

INTERVIEWER: Thinking about teaching computer science specifically, can you talk a bit about the Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs and what that grew out of and what the sort of fundamental concepts are behind your approach?

采访者：具体到计算机科学的教学， 能谈谈《计算机程序的构造和解释》 这本书，它的来源，以及你们教学方法背后的基本概念吗？

ABELSON: So Gerry Sussman and I, I think were really privileged in that we wrote a book that really was able to draw on that whole of a 20-year history of how MIT and that whole AI culture thought about computing.

ABELSON：所以 Gerry Sussman 和我， 我觉得我们真的很荣幸能写这样一本书，它充分借鉴了整整 20 年来 MIT 以及整个人工智能文化圈对“计算”的思考。

And it goes directly back to again Seymour Papert and Marvin Minsky.

再一次，这又能直接追溯到 Seymour Papert 和 Marvin Minsky。

And it really has to do with--

它的核心是——

what's the phrase we used-- a computer program is a way of expressing ideas and communicating ideas, and only incidentally about getting a machine to do stuff.

我们怎么说的来着——计算机程序是表达想法和交流想法的手段， 让机器做事只是附带的结果。

That is straight out of--

这直接源于——

I don't think Seymour used those words, but that's straight out of the Logo philosophy of we're teaching you--

Seymour 应该没有说过这句话，但这直接源于 Logo 的哲学：我们是在教你——

like I talked about juggling before.

正如刚才谈到的抛接球一样。

This really is, what's the procedure for how you juggle?

本质上是，抛接球到底是怎样的过程？

And critical in being able to do that is having the right set of words and having the right descriptive framework for saying things like that.

要能教会它，至关重要的是拥有一套恰当的词汇和恰当的描述框架，来表达这类事情。

And so the key idea in Structure and Interpretation is what we ended up calling the linguistic approach to programming design, which says if I would like to do some very complicated thing, one of the critical tasks is picking the right descriptive framework for saying that.

所以《结构与解释》中的关键思想， 我们最终称之为“语言学方法”的程序设计， 意思是说如果我想做一些非常复杂的事情，关键任务之一是选择恰当的描述框架来表达它。

So there is a complete blend.

这是对之前那些想法的完全融合。

I think somewhere in that book we wrote that when you make a complicated program, you're actually designing a special purpose computer language to solve a problem.

我记得在书中某处我们写道，当你编写一个复杂的程序时，你实际上在设计一个专门的程序语言来解决问题。

And it comes through in lots and lots of ways.

这点体现在很多很多方面。

So it goes back I think to the AI culture, which has the property that you don't quite know what problem you're solving because these things are really complicated.

我觉得它起源于人工智能文化，它有一个特点是你不太清楚你要解决什么问题，因为它们非常复杂。

It's not as if someone says compute the total payment on this mortgage where you know exactly what you're going to do.

它不像有人让你计算出这笔抵押贷款的总还款额，你很清楚知道接下来要做什么。

Rather it says, you want to be mucking around in this area to solve this problem and lots and lots and lots and lots of similar problems.

相反，它是要你在这个领域摸索，来解决这个问题，以及很多、很多、很多、很多类似的问题。

And that permeates both the design of the book and the actual programming technology that people use.

这种理念既贯穿于本书的设计中， 也贯穿于人们实际使用的编程技术里。

So the style of programming languages that go back to LISP is really sort of muddier.

因此起源自 LISP 的编程语言风格是相当“浑浊”的。

It's not a very precise kind of thing.

它并不是种非常精确的东西。

You make ways of programming things where you're solving not just one problem but a whole family of problems in that.

你摸索出的编程方式，解决的不仅仅是一个问题，而是一整类问题。

And again, it goes back to very, very technical things, like LISP is a very good language for creating other computer languages.

这又再次源于一些非常、非常技术性的东西， 比如 LISP 这门语言非常适合用来创建其他计算机语言。

Because when you're programming in LISP, you actually have the mentality of gosh, I'm actually creating some special purpose language to solve not just one problem, but lots of them.

因为当你用 LISP 编程时，你实际上有一种心态，老天，我实际上是在创建某种专用语言，不仅是为了解决一个问题，而是为了解决很多问题。

And that's the critical idea in Structure and Interpretation.

而这正是《构造与解释》中的核心思想。

I mean we can't take credit for that.

我想说，这不是我们自己的发明。

We were just blessed that there was a whole tradition of 20 years of really deep thinking at MIT and a couple of other similar places.

我们只是很幸运，在 MIT 和其他几个类似的地方有整整 20 年的深度思考的传承。

And we sort of got to be the people who got to put that in the book.

而我们只是恰好成为了把那些思考写进书里的人。

And it's had enormous influence, but it's not because of us, it's because the tremendous power of those ideas and the communities that they came from.

这本书产生了巨大的影响，但那并不是因为我们个人，而是因为那些思想本身以及孕育出它们的那些社区所拥有的强大力量。

INTERVIEWER: So moving beyond those communities that the book and that thought process came out of, did you encounter resistance, maybe that's not the right word, maybe misunderstanding--

采访者：那么，等走出孕育出这本书以及那种思考方式的社群之后，你们有没有遇到过阻力——也许这个词不太准确， 或许该说是误解——

people who were focused on the syntax?

从关注点在语法上的人那里？

ABELSON: So we published this with MIT Press.

ABELSON：我们跟 MIT 出版社出版这本书后。

And MIT Press sent it out for reviews.

MIT 出版社把它送出去做评审。

And the first review came back.

回来的第一份评审意见。

And I'll never forget.

我永远都不会忘记。

It said, quote, the question is, is in MIT Press publishing this book going to advance or set back computer science?

它写到，原话：“问题在是，MIT 出版社出版这本书，是会推动还是会阻碍计算机科学的发展？”

So there was a lot of resistance to this because it's just very different.

所以当时对此有很多阻力，因为它实在太不一样了。

And there's a lot of people who really don't believe in that approach, who really do think it's the wrong thing.

有很多人真的不认同这种方法，真心认为这样不对。

Because again, it's this notion of you don't actually focus on solving this problem very, very, very precisely.

因为刚才讲的，它的理念是不要把关注点放在非常、非常、非常精确地解决某个问题。

There's a whole movement in computer science, a tremendously respectable one, and it says a program is like the proof of a mathematical theorem.

计算机科学界有一整派运动， 备受尊敬，它认为一段程序就像一段对数学定理的证明。

And there are people who do prove things about programs.

也确实有人在做关于程序的证明。

That in some sense is the mainstream almost. Whereas we're saying well, a program is sort of like a language.

从某种意义上说，那几乎就是主流思想。而我们却说，嗯，一段程序像是一门语言。

Like you can say lots of things.

好比你可以说很多事情。

And I don't imagine I'm going to prove everything I'm going to say.

我不认为我要证明我说的每件事。

It's just that the great thing is I get to see all these different things.

关键是，最棒的事情在于我能看到所有这些不同的事物。

So we've had a lot of influence, but I wouldn't even say that we're mainstream, even now.

所以我们产生了很大的影响，但我肯定不会说我们是主流，哪怕是现在。

INTERVIEWER: From my limited experience when I think back to my computer programming classes, it was more like the mathematical theorem approach.

采访者：从我有限的经验看，回忆起我上计算机编程课程时，它更像是那种数学定理的方法。

Yeah.

是的。

ABELSON: Exactly right.

ABELSON：完全正确。

It is.

确实如此。

INTERVIEWER: So talk about 6.001 and the development of that class, which is obviously closely related to the book, right?

采访者：那么我们来谈谈 6.001 和它的发展，这显然与这本书密切相关，对吧？

ABELSON: Gosh.

ABELSON：老天爷。

So the other person who really deserves enormous credit for this is Bob Fano.

还有一位对这一切功不可没的人， 他是 Bob Fano。

There was a tradition of, what was the first MIT computer science course?

当时有一个传统：MIT 第一门计算机科学课程是什么？

There was one taught by Mike Dertouzos and Steve Ward for awhile.

有一门课是 Mike Dertouzos 和 Steve Ward 教的。

But when I got involved with this, Bob Fano was teaching this.

但等我参与进来的时候，是 Bob Fano 在教这门课。

It was called 6.035.

叫 6.035。

And what was it called?

它叫什么名字来着？

I think it might have been called Structure and Interpretation of Computer Languages.

我记得可能叫《计算机语言的构造和解释》 （Structure and Interpretation of Computer Languages）。

And it was very focused on, here's this kind of language.

它非常专注于，对这样一种语言的介绍。

The language then was ALGOL people used.

那时教的语言是当时用的多的 ALGOL。

And then it did a little bit of LISP.

然后也稍微讲了一点 LISP。

And it was kind of an okay course.

算是门还不错的课程。

Mostly famous because it was the first course.

它出名主要是因为它是第一门课程。

But Fano did say the key thing.

但 Fano 确实说了关键的东西。

So I talked about what you're doing is making a language and how you make languages to make languages.

我刚才说到了，编程本质是创造一门语言， 以及你如何通过创造语言来创造语言。

The technical term for that is an interpreter.

对应的术语叫作解释器（interpreter）。

So an interpreter is something that effectively takes the description of a language and lets the computer effectively speak that language.

解释器本质是，接收对一门语言的描述，然后让计算机等于是用那门语言“说话”。

And Fano was very--

而 Fano 非常——

I mean he would say this in his lectures.

我的意思是，他会在课堂上这么说。

I don't think any of the students got it.

我觉得当时没有学生真的听懂了。

I didn't get it until like the third time through, where he sort of said the really, really key thing is that you build up complexity by constructing an interpreter.

我自己反复听了三遍课才明白， 他大概是说，最最关键的事情在于通过构建一个解释器来堆砌复杂度。

And again, that's the core idea of 6.001, said in a slightly different way.

像刚才说的，这是 6.001 的核心思想， 只是说法略有不同。

So he had an enormous, enormous influence on us, but also more directly.

所以他对我们产生了极其、极其重大的影响，而且还有另一个更加直接的影响。

So about this time, there was a tradition in the electrical engineering computer science department of when the department did the transition from kind of power engineering to signals engineering in the late '50s, led by people like Ernie Guillemin and those sort legends at MIT, there was a very, very influential series of textbooks that came out, I think in the late '50s, early '60s, that almost sort of set the academic marker for the field of electrical engineering.

有一次，电气工程与计算机科学系里有一个传统：系里在 50 年代末从电力工程转向信号工程的时候， 在 Ernie Guillemin 以及其他 MIT 那些传奇人物的带领下， 催生了一系列非常、非常有影响力的教材， 我想是在 50 年代末、60 年代初， 它们几乎为电气工程领域树立了学术标杆。

So when we were there in the in the late '70s and very beginning of the '80s, Joel Moses and Gerry Wilson wanted to do that again.

所以当我们在 70 年代末、80 年代初在那里时，Joel Moses 和 Gerry Wilson 想要再来一次。

So there was this notion that there would be a series of new courses and new books that the department would put out.

所以当时有一种想法，系里要推出一系列新的课程和新的书籍。

And then what was going to be the computing one?

那么，讲计算的那本会是哪本呢？

So Fano basically backed that Gerry and I would do the computing one and do the computing course.

Fano 就支持由 Gerry 和我来编写关于计算的书、教关于计算的课。

And again, there was a lot of a lot of controversy there because people didn't believe it.

刚才也说了，这里有很多、很多争议， 因为人们不相信它。

Fano was sort of the power in the department who really made it possible for us to do that.

Fano 某种程度上是系里的权威中，真正让我们能做成这件事情的人。

Gerry and I sort of happened into this.

Gerry 和我只是误打误撞。

So we were sort of lucky.

我们可以说是走运了。

And just very, very fortunate that there were some smart people backing us.

而且非常、非常幸运，有那些聪明的人支持我们。

INTERVIEWER: How has introductory curriculum in ECS changed since that time?

采访者：从那时起，ECS（电气工程与计算机科学系）的入门课程发生了怎样的变化？

I mean clearly it's--

我是说，很明显它——

ABELSON: Oh, it's changed a lot.

ABELSON：哦，变化很大。

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

采访者：是啊。

ABELSON: I don't know.

ABELSON：我也说不太清楚。

People keep using the phrase bittersweet.

人们一直用“苦乐参半”这个词来形容。

It's changed in style.

它的风格改变了。

So what happened in the department is the department kind of decided that the way students get introduced into the department should become more horizontal and less vertical, by which I mean when you go into the department before the new curriculum, there were a bunch of very intellectually deep courses.

所以，系里发生的事情是， 系里某种程度上决定，学生进入这个系的引介方式应该变得更“横向”，而不是那么“纵向”，我的意思是，在新课程体系之前你进到系里的时候， 会有一系列极具智力深度的课程。

So 6.001 really is a deep course in software engineering.

比如 6.001 实际上是一门在软件工程方面非常深入的课程。

And then the idea was well, you shouldn't actually do that because if students want to think about what they want to major in, they ought to get an experience that's a lot more broad.

之后的想法是，其实不应该这样做， 因为如果学生要思考自己主修什么专业，他们应该有更加广泛的体验。

So they should learn not only about software, but something about circuits and something about signal processing and all that.

所以他们不仅应该学习软件，还应该学一点电路、学一点信号处理，等等这些。

So 6.001 sort of didn't fit into that world.

所以 6.001 有点不适合那个体系。

I sort was on the committee.

我算是委员会的一员。

I had this funny feeling.

我有一种奇怪的感觉。

I sort of loved the course.

我挺喜欢这门课程。

But I also had this feeling that the course needed to change.

但我也有种感觉， 这门课需要改变。

And both Gerry and I felt that as long as we were part of it, it wasn't going to change.

而且 Gerry 和我都觉得，只要我们还参与其中， 它就不会改变。

And in fact we consciously got out of it.

事实上我们刻意地从中退出了。

We had an official, what you call passing of the baton ceremony in one of the lectures where Bob Fano was there as the originator of this, who let us do 6.001.

我们在其中一堂课上举行了一个正式的，所谓的交接仪式，Bob Fano 也在场，作为这门课的发起人，是他让我们开设了 6.001。

And then Eric Grimson and Duane Boning were there.

然后 Eric Grimson 和 Duane Boning 也在场。

They were going to take it over.

他们将接手这门课。

And we kind of officially passed the baton.

我们算是正式进行了交接。

And we said we now did this in front of 350 student witnesses.

然后我们说，我们现在是在 350 名学生的见证之下。

We are never going to teach this course again.

我们永远不会再教这门课了。

The department can't ask us.

系里不能要求我们教。

But then what happened is even after we got out of it, the course didn't change as much.

结果后来，即使在我们退出之后，这门课程也没有太大变化。

And we can flatter ourselves and say well, the ideas were just really great.

我们可以自吹自擂说，嗯，因为那些理念实在很棒。

But sometimes you just need a kick in the pants to go someplace else.

但是有时候你就是得屁股上来一脚， 才能去到别的地方。

So this new department curriculum structure turned out to be the kick in the pants.

所以系里这个新的课程体系成了屁股上来的那一脚。

And so I was part of the group, along with Leslie Kaelbling and Jacob White and Tomas Lozano-Perez, who sort of designed sort of the new course, which consciously was not about 6.001.

我成了新课程组的一员，和 Leslie Kaelbling， Jacob White 还有 Tomas Lozano-Perez 一起，基本上是他们设计了新课程，刻意不再围绕 6.001 展开。

But a lot of the biggest themes of 6.001 about extraction and modularity and the way you express things, they carry over into the new course.

但 6.001 中许多最重要的主题， 关于抽象、模块化，以及如何表达， 延续到了新课程中。

But the new course is also doing robotics.

但新课程还涉及机器人学。

And it's thinking that signal processing.

还有信号处理的思想。

And there's even some stuff about circuits.

甚至还有一些关于电路的内容。

So it's not a deep course in that sense.

所以从这个意义上说，它不是一门深入的课程。

And there's a lot of people who have come through MIT--

有很多 MIT 毕业的人——

I don't want to take credit for 6.001 and that, but I want to say it was a very deep experience in how you think of software--

我不想把 6.001 和下面的话归功于己， 但我想说，它是关于如何思考软件的一个非常深入的体验——

who criticized what we did.

他们曾经批评过我们的做法。

And they say they really miss it.

后来说他们真的很怀念那门课。

They talk about their own intellectual development as programmers.

他们提到他们作为程序员，个人的智识发展。

It was just profoundly influenced by that kind of very--

深刻地影响了他们， 那种非常——

we would sit in that class and talk about the philosophy sometimes.

我们有时会坐在那门课上， 谈论哲学。

The new course does not do that in the same way.

新课程里不再有这样的方式了。

On the other hand, you have to sort of ask what's the population you're serving?

另一方面，你必须得问，你究竟在服务怎样的学生群体？

And the fact that you talk to the minority of students who really, really glommed on to our way of thinking and they say, gee, we really wish MIT were still doing that.

事实是，如果你和少数那些真的、真的接受了我们思维方式的学生交谈，他们会说， 哎呀，我们真的希望 MIT 还那样教课。

I don't know what the right way of serving the most students are.

我不知道服务大多数学生的正确方式是什么。

But in any case we're just doing something rather different in motivation now.

但无论如何，我们现在做的事情， 出发点已经大不相同。

INTERVIEWER: So it's broader, but less deep.

采访者：所以它涉猎更广，但不那么深入。

ABELSON: And very consciously less deep.

ABELSON：并且非常有意地不那么深入。

INTERVIEWER: Right.

采访者：对。

What are MIT students like?

MIT 的学生是什么样的？

I mean how do they respond to the deep dive on the one hand or the sort of broad fire hose on the other of having to deal with all of these different things?

我的意思是，他们对一边是这种深入的课程， 另一边是必须应付各种不同内容的 “大消防水枪”式的教学，有什么反应？

ABELSON: I think you can't generalize.

ABELSON：我认为你不能一概而论。

Right.

对。

There are certainly some, I'm going to say kind of the mathematical ones.

确实有一些，我会说是那种偏数学型的学生。

So even though it's not mathematics, that kind of deep thing is a math kind of experience.

虽然不是数学，但那种深入的课程也是一种数学式的体验。

And they really would rather have something that's more like the original 6.001.

他们真的宁愿要更像原来的 6.001 的课程。

But then there are a whole bunch of others who just want to--

但还有一大批其他学生， 他们只想——

I just want to understand the breath of this field I'm getting into.

我只想了解我要进入的这个领域的广度。

I don't want to just because I'm going to major in electrical engineering, have to take a whole semester of this other stuff, most of which is kind of irrelevant to me.

我不想仅仅因为我要主修电气工程， 就非得学上一整学期这些其他的东西，其中大部分对我来说都无关紧要。

So again, I don't have a good sense of how the students are feeling about the population it's serving.

所以刚才也说了，我对现在学生们的感受和这个课程的受众不是特别有把握。

Because we did this other thing at the same time, which as far as students I think has a much bigger impact.

因为我们同时还做了另一件事， 我认为就学生而言，影响要大得多。

So there's a whole other stream which we haven't talked about at MIT and active learning, which comes from the stuff I've been doing with the Educational Technology Council.

在 MIT 还有另一条我们还没谈到的脉络： 主动学习（active learning），源于我和教育技术委员会（Educational Technology Council） 一直在做的事情。

But we made a radical, radical change in the style of the course, which was removing most of the lectures.

但我们对课程风格做了一个彻头彻尾的改变，就是去掉了大部分讲座。

So in the new course, the main thing you do with your time is you work on a project.

所以在新课程中，你主要的时间都花在做一个项目上。

And there's a big giant open lab.

有个巨大的开放实验室。

And the entire teaching staff of the course is present in this open lab.

课程的全体教学人员都在这个开放实验室里。

And there's kind of a pyramidal structure where there are undergraduate laboratory assistants, and each group of them is kind of supervised by a graduate student TA, and each group of graduate student TA's are supervised by the actual course faculty.

那里有一种金字塔结构， 先是本科生实验室助理， 他们分组后由研究生助教监督， 研究生助教再分组后再由真正的课程教师监督。

And we're all sort of mixing it up in the course and sitting there talking to individual students.

我们所有人都在课程中混合在一起， 坐在那里与单个学生交谈。

So rather than sitting in lecture, it's this very kind of open, interactive project-based thing.

所以，与坐在那里听讲座相反，它是一种非常开放、互动的、基于项目的学习方式。

And that's such an enormous change in style, that when you kind of ask the students well, do you like it more, how you react to it more, that's got to dominate what we were doing in terms of content.

这种风格上的改变是如此巨大，以至于决定课程内容的主要因素是，我们去问学生， 嗯，你们更喜欢它吗，怎么能让你更有反应呢？

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

采访者：是啊。

I want to actually ask a whole set of questions on educational technology and the developments you've been involved in.

我其实想就教育技术和你所参与推动的进展提出一整套问题。

Before turning to that, at the risk of asking to generalize again about MIT students, is there any way of talking about how or whether MIT students have changed over the course of your career?

在转向那个话题之前，虽然又可能要冒昧地引出对 MIT 学生的一概而论，但能否谈谈在你的职业生涯中，MIT 学生是如何， 或者是否发生了变化？

ABELSON: Oh, god.

ABELSON: 哦，老天爷。

You get the feeling that about every three years there's a new generation.

会有种感觉，大约每三年就会出现新一代学生。

So the main way MIT students have changed I think is that they're more docile, as much as I hate to say.

我认为 MIT 学生最主要的变化是他们更温顺了，尽管我很不想这么说。

Marilee Jones, who was admissions director, actually thought about this a lot.

当时的招生主任 Marilee Jones，实际上对此思考了很多。

Remember in the '60s, MIT took half of its applicants.

还记得在 60 年代，MIT 会录取一半的申请者。

And now it takes what, 10 percent, under 10 percent?

而现在录取多少，10%，不到 10%？

And the students who end up getting into MIT are coming from a way more competitive environment.

最终能进入 MIT 的学生来自一个竞争激烈得多的环境。

And in general, and in tremendous exceptions, they have been successful by kind of listening to their parents and listening to adults.

总体而言，除了极少数例外，他们之所以成功，某种程度上是因为他们听父母的话，听成年人的话。

And that's led to a tendency that students I think have too much respect for what adults or like faculty or something are saying.

我认为这导致了一种倾向，学生对成年人或者教职人员之类的人所说的话过于尊重。

So there's really a sense of just kind of well they sort of know better and they have good things.

于是就形成了一种意识：那些人似乎更懂，那些人有好的想法。

And they go along it.

他们就顺着来。

And there's not as much a sense of really challenging the system.

真正去挑战体制的想法没有那么强了。

Now I don't know whether that's a generational thing or whether it's this particular kind of influence at the top schools like MIT.

我不知道这是一整代人的事情， 还是像 MIT 这样的顶尖学校所特有的影响。

When's the last time you saw students take over a building at MIT?

你最后一次看到学生占领 MIT 的大楼是什么时候？

Like I said, when I showed up at MIT when I saw that happen, I said what incredibly an healthy thing to happen.

就像刚才说的，我刚到 MIT 时看到那种情况时，我说那是多么健康的事情啊。

And now we get upset if students crack into an elevator.

而现在，如果学生黑进了电梯， 我们都会感到不安。

So there's really this sense of the students becoming--

所以真的有一种感觉，学生变得--

I mean docile may be not quite-- the wrong word--

我是说，“温顺”可能不太--不恰当--

but sort of too much respect for what the Institution is doing.

但有点过于尊重学校的做法了。

And I sort of wish that would change.

我多少希望这种情况能改变。

So that's sort of the big change that I see.

这基本就是我看到的重大变化。

INTERVIEWER: What price do we pay if the students are more sort of quick to fall in line or to do what's expected, rather than to push boundaries, I mean if any?

采访者：如果学生更循规蹈矩、按部就班， 而不是去突破边界，我们会付出什么代价，如果有的话？

ABELSON: I think its brilliance, its creativity, its achievement.

ABELSON:我认为代价是才华、 创造力和成就。

When you think about any place or MIT, you sort of think in terms of the characters.

当你去思考一个地方时，包括 MIT，你多少会用那里的“人物”去衡量。

Who are the characters around this place who give it tremendous flavor?

那个地方有哪些人物，给它增添了浓郁的风味？

Maybe they're not the smartest people or doing the greatest things.

也许他们并不是最聪明的人，也没有在做最伟大的事情。

But they add spice to it.

但他们为它增添了味道。

And you have to make room and just really venerate those kind of people.

我们得给这种人留出空间，真的崇敬那种人。

And the more we worry about those people are going to be doing something destructive or they'll be wasting time or they'll be wasting resources or something, the more you lose that kind of spice.

而我们越是担心这些人会做出破坏性的事情，或者浪费时间， 或者浪费资源之类的，我们就越会失去那种味道。

And I sort of hope MIT never loses that, although there's just a lot of I don't quite want to say regimentation, but it's just I'd say a little lack of tolerance for the oddballs.

我希望 MIT 永远不要失去它， 尽管现在有很多的，我不太想说是教条，但我会说是有点缺少对怪才的容忍。

And we have to just treasure the oddballs more.

我们必须更加珍惜那些怪才。

INTERVIEWER: So turning to educational technology, you've been deeply involved in any number of initiatives and deployment of programs since you've been at MIT.

采访者：那么转到教育技术这个话题， 自从你来到 MIT 之后就一直深度参与了许多项目的倡议和实施。

ABELSON: Since 1969.

ABELSON: 从 1969 年开始。

INTERVIEWER: Yes.

采访者：是的。

Tell me first of all where does that interest come from?

首先请告诉我，这种兴趣从何而来？

Why is it something that you have spent so much time and energy and effort on?

为什么你会在这方面投入如此多的时间、精力和努力？

ABELSON: So part of it quite frankly was this accident about going over to the AI Lab, meeting Papert in the elevator.

ABELSON: 其中一部分，说实话是机缘巧合， 那次偶然去 AI 实验室并在电梯里遇到 Papert。

But again, also the sense that I think a lot of people have of the joy of explaining things.

但又说回来，也是因为那种很多人都有的、解释事物的乐趣。

And then the particular thing about--

然后特别的一点是——

well, for me it's computers and educational technology.

嗯，对我来说，就是计算机和教育技术。

It's not just explaining things.

不仅仅是解释事物。

It's empowering people to do them.

而是给人们去这样做的能力。

So even going back to the original sort of Logo turtle, which is the first thing I worked on, it's not that oh, it's sort of cool.

所以即使回到最初的 Logo 海龟， 那是我参与的第一个项目，不是说 “哦，这挺酷的”。

You might think about geometric designs.

你可以用来思考几何设计。

But I can make this world where students can kind of explore and do things that are both unexpected and explainable.

但我可以创造这样一个世界，在其中学生能探索，能做一些既出人意料又可以解释的事情。

And that's sort of the root of how I think about educational technology.

这大致就是我看待教育技术的本源。

But then there was a shift.

但是后来有了一个转变。

I guess for me it came--

我想对我来说，那是在——

oh, it didn't come until the late '80s or even the mid-'90s, where I started thinking about the institution in educational technology.

哦，那要到 80 年代末， 甚至 90 年代中期，我才开始思考学校之于教育技术的意义。

There's this whole other ethic which is how should an institution behave in that world?

这是另一套伦理问题，教育机构在这个领域里，应该如何行事？

So it's not only about how you effectively transmit things to students or do them.

所以这不仅仅关乎如何有效地将知识传授给学生，或者实际去做这件事情。

It's what what's it mean for an institution to actually live in the world as a responsible citizen?

而是，教育机构作为生存于世的一个负责任的公民，意味着什么？

And I became really interested in that.

我对此产生了浓厚的兴趣。

The person who for me embodies that and still embodies that is Chuck Vest. His whole presidency was this sense of is MIT acting as a responsible, ethical being in what it can do?

对我而言，体现这一点、并且至今仍然体现这一点的人是 Chuck Vest。他的整个校长任期都贯穿着这样一种思考： MIT 在自身所能做的事情中，是否在扮演一个负责任、有道德的角色？

So I think about educational technology in that way.

所以我是以这种方式来思考教育技术的。

It's not only how do we behave towards our own student body, it's how do we behave towards the world?

这不仅关乎我们如何对待自己的学生群体， 还关乎我们如何对待整个世界？

So there is the sense that you often here of MIT, this sense that MIT is a precious world resource.

你经常会听到一种对 MIT 的看法，觉得 MIT 是一项宝贵的世界资源。

And I certainly believe that's true.

我当然这么认为。

And then the question is, with terms of education and educational technology, how do you sort of step up to that obligation?

那么问题是，在教育和教育技术方面，你如何承担起相应的义务？

And part of it is how you behave as a model for other places.

部分答案在于，你如何为其他地方树立榜样。

So even going back to like the book that Gerry Sussman and I wrote, there was always this sense that when you're writing a textbook at MIT, it's not really that they're going to be big sales about it, because in our case it was gosh, we're teaching computer programming and it's got calculus in chapter one.

甚至最早 Gerry Sussman 和我写的那本书，我们一直有种感觉， 给 MIT 写教科书，并不会真的指望能卖出很多，因为就我们那本书而言，老天， 我们是要讲计算机科学，而且第一章还带着微积分。

How could you use that?

这书咋用？

But it's the sense of you're sort of writing it for the people who are going to write the next round of books for everybody else.

但我们觉得我们是在为下一轮的作者写书，他们要写给所有其他人看。

So a sense of people are watching and it matters what you do.

就有一种意识，人们在看着， 所以你的所作所为很重要。

And that's kind of a little bit what's behind OpenCourseWare.

这有点像 OpenCourseWare（开放课程） 背后的理念。

It's not just me.

不止我一个这样想。

The original notion about OpenCourseWare is we thought that our audience in OpenCourseWare were other educators.

关于 OpenCourseWare 最初的想法是， 我们认为开放课程的受众是其他教育者。

And the way that whole initiative was crafted where we said it's really important that we show all MIT courses because what you're trying to exhibit there, your model was--

整个倡议构筑于一个想法上，就是我们一定要展示 MIT 所有的课程， 因为你想展示的是， 你的榜样作用是——

I'm very consciously--

我非常有意识地设想——

the education minister in some third-world country would like to understand what that country should be doing about chemical engineering.

某个第三世界国家的教育部长可能想了解该国在化学工程领域应该做些什么。

And then you sort of see displayed out before you is what MIT, the top institution in the world, thinks is chemical engineering.

然后你就能看到展示在你面前的是 MIT，世界顶尖学府， 所理解的化学工程。

And this is what was in our heads when we made OpenCourseWare.

这是我们在创立 OpenCourseWare 时脑海中的想法。

Of course it didn't quite work that way because what we say, oh my god, they're all these people who actually want to learn chemical engineering, who look at this stuff.

当然，事情并没有完全像那样发展， 因为我们发现，老天爷，有那么多人是真的想来学习化学工程，来看这些课程。

And that should have been obvious in hindsight because there are many more students in the world than educators.

事后看来这本应显而易见，因为世上的学生比老师多得多。

But we were surprised by that.

但当时我们很惊讶。

But to get back to the original ethos of that, is you're setting yourself up as a model and you're trying to influence the influencers.

但是回到最初的理想， 你是在把自己树立为榜样， 去影响那些决策者。

And what you do matters.

你的所作所为很重要。

And that's not only a technical obligation, it's an ethical obligation for how you behave and how you think about it.

而这不仅仅是技术上的责任，更是一种伦理责任，关乎你的行为方式和你对此的思考方式。

And that's kind of how I think about educational technologies.

这就是我对教育技术的看法。

It's with that sense of you're creating a model.

带着这样一种意识，你是在树立典范。

You have an obligation to sort of see that it works out right with respect to how you think the world is evolving and how you think the internet is evolving.

你有义务确保它朝着正确的方向发展， 基于你对世界会如何演变、 互联网会如何演变的理解。

But much, much of MIT is like that.

但 MIT 的很大很大一部分都是这样的。

It's a whole ethos of service that's really integral to how much of this community works.

这一整套服务精神对于这个社区的运作不可或缺。

INTERVIEWER: Tell me a bit more about the genesis of OpenCourseWare.

采访者：再多跟我讲讲 OpenCourseWare 的起源吧。

I know that when I first heard about it at the time it was first announced, I guess certainly not before then, it was somewhat from my very limited perspective it seemed very shocking that MIT would do that.

我知道当我第一次听说它的时候，也就是在刚宣布它时，我想在那之前肯定没有， 从我非常有限的视角来看，MIT 竟然会这样做，真是相当令人震惊。

And I'm just really interested in the genesis, the thought process institutionally, and also for you personally?

我非常感兴趣于它的起源，在学校层面的思考过程，以及对你个人而言是怎样的？

ABELSON: Yeah.

ABELSON: 是啊。

The only disappointment I have about OpenCourseWare is that we announced it after the internet bubble had peaked.

我对 OpenCourseWare 唯一的遗憾是，我们是在互联网泡沫达到顶峰后才宣布它的。

Again, if you go back to the late '90s, right, 1998, 1999, 2000, there was this sense, if you read in the educational technology press or the education news, that universities were sitting on a gold mine.

又说回去，假如你回到 90 年代，对， 1998，1999，2000，当时有一种观点，如果你去读关于教育技术的媒体或者教育新闻， 说大学正坐在一座金矿上。

People talked about literally a $2 trillion economy coming out of universities, taking their course materials and putting them on the network.

人们说大学可以带来实打实的 2 万亿美元的经济效益，把他们的教学材料拿出来放到网络上。

And I just loved it that in that climate, MIT said hey, we're giving it away.

而我非常喜欢的是，在那种气候下，MIT 却说， 嘿，我们不要钱。

Education is being part of the community of interacting and doing research and being part of it.

教育应当是参与到这个互动地做研究的社区，成为社区的一分子。

That's why you come to MIT.

那才是你来 MIT 的原因。

That stuff you can watch on television, we just give that away.

那些你在电视上看到的东西， 我们免费赠送。

So I just loved saying that.

我非常喜欢这个说法。

Now that came from kind of a different place.

不过，这个想法源于一个略有不同的情景。

That was a wonderfully well-crafted story that fit where we wanted to be in that place.

那是一个构思精巧的故事，和我们在那个情景下希望能处于的位置非常契合。

But in fact what happened is Bob Brown, who was provost then, formed the Council on Educational Technology, which he and I ran together for a couple years.

但实际上发生的是，当时担任教务长的 Bob Brown 成立了教育技术委员会（Council on Educational Technology）， 他和我在几年里共同主持这个委员会。

And that came from a prior thing, where as Chuck Vest would say, he'd go around the country around 1997 and give these talks.

而那又源于更早的一件事，如 Chuck Vest 会说的，他在 1997 年左右在全国各地做演讲。

And people would say, there's this internet.

人们会说，现在有这个互联网。

What's MIT's going to do about it, quite literally?

MIT 对此打算怎么办，就这么直白地问？

And so was a sense of what MIT should do.

所以就有了一种 MIT 应该做什么的想法。

And a bunch of councils and groups met.

然后有一系列委员会和小组召开了会议。

There was a thing--

有一个叫——

I forget with the name was, but there was a council that sort of talked about MIT's agenda going ahead and talked about all sorts of stuff.

我忘了它的名字，但有一个委员会算是讨论了 MIT 未来的发展议程， 讨论了各种各样的事务。

And they barely mentioned that there was an internet.

而他们几乎没有提到互联网的存在。

There was a phrase that said--

其中有一句话是——

literal phrase--

原话——

MIT should focus 02139.

MIT 应该专注于 02139（译者注：麻省理工学院的邮政编码）。

And there was this grudging idea that there was something outside in terms of the opportunities for MIT going forward in the future.

这里带着一种勉强承认的感觉，认为对于 MIT 未来的发展机遇来说， 外面的世界还是有点什么的。

And then there was another committee which said the opposite, that was run by Nick Negroponte and Mike Dertouzos, that basically said, gosh, MIT is the most wonderful place in the world.

然后另一个委员会持相反意见，由 Nick Negroponte 和 Mike Dertouzos 领导， 基本上是说：老天，MIT 是世界上最棒的地方。

We should be expansive.

我们应该向外扩张。

And we should just take millions of dollars and invest this in all sorts of technology things.

我们应该拿出数百万美元， 投资于各种技术领域。

And these two committees were kind of at loggerheads.

这两个委员当时算是僵持不下。

What kind of happened is the technology committee got saddled with, you guys are just a bunch of technological determinism.

大致的情况是，技术委员会被扣上了“你们就是一群技术决定论者”的帽子。

In this place, we don't have to think about it.

在我们这，我们不需要考虑这些。

The other committee said wow, this is really about the spirit of MIT.

而技术委员会则说，喔，这事实际关乎 MIT 的精神。

But there was tremendous dissatisfaction because it was just ignoring the way the world was going.

但人们对此非常不满，因为这完全忽视了世界的发展方向。

And so Bob Brown sort of wanted to find a way to mediate this stuff, to think about what's the way forward, looking at these things.

所以 Bob Brown 是想找个办法来调和这些分歧，在审视这些情况时， 思考未来的路该怎么走。

And he formed the Council on Educational Technology, which it's kind of hidden agenda was to do that, find a path.

于是他成立了教育技术委员会（Council on Educational Technology）， 它多少有点隐藏的议题就是要这么做，找到一条出路。

So one of the things we did is we actually got McKinsey in to do a consulting--

所以我们做的一件事是，我们真的请来了麦肯锡（McKinsey）做咨询——

their standard kind of strategic consulting, saying where we are we going, what are the opportunities?

他们那种标准的战略咨询， 说我们的方向是什么，有哪些机遇？

And we kind of said MIT is doing a whole bunch of disjointed things.

我们大致表示，MIT 正在做一大堆互不相关的事情。

One of the consultant's had a really nice graphic he made with a whole bunch of sailboats that were MIT things.

其中一位顾问做了一张很漂亮的图， 上面画着一大堆帆船， 代表 MIT 的各种项目。

And all the sailboats were going off in all kinds of different directions.

所有这些帆船都朝着各种不同的方向驶去。

And we did a survey of the MIT community about what's important.

我们还对 MIT 社区做了一项调查， 关于“什么是重要的”。

And what was interesting is not coming from us on this ed tech council, but as said back to us by the consultants, it said, gee, what's really important at MIT is the integration of research and education.

结果有趣的结论并不是来自我们教育技术委员会，而是由顾问们反馈给我们的， 他们说，哎，MIT 真正重要的是研究与教育的融合。

And now what's that say?

这意味着什么呢？

That says if you're thinking about distance learning in this sense, if somehow that is just curriculum material and it's not infused with the notion of research, that's kind of not an MIT education.

这意味着，如果你从这个角度思考远程教育，如果它只是讲课程材料，而没有融入研究的理念，那它就不算是 MIT 式的教育。

So that one kind of fundamental they heard.

这是他们听到的一个基本点。

Another one they heard which this notion of an integrated faculty.

他们听到的另一个基本点是一体化教师队伍的概念。

So MIT, unlike lots of other places, has this notion of one faculty.

MIT 与许多其他地方不同，它有一个 “统一的教师队伍”的概念。

We don't have graduate faculty or we don't have teaching faculty and research faculty.

我们没有研究生导师，也没有教学教职与研究教职之分。

We have faculty.

我们就只有教职员工。

And there's the sense if you're on the faculty, you're supposed to do all of these things.

并且有一种观念是，如果你在教师团队中， 你就应该承担所有这些职责。

So there's this notion of if we really went and like oh, the Harvard Extension School, had a whole bunch of people who are not actual Harvard faculty who were teaching this thing, ahh, that's not the sort of thing MIT does.

所以我们的想法是，如果我们真的像哈佛大学继续教育学院（Harvard Extension School）那样， 让一大批不是真正的哈佛教师的人来讲课， 啊，那可不是 MIT 的做法。

So there were a bunch of principles like that.

于是就有了一系列这样的原则。

And eventually we were sort of saying as MIT goes forward, do we think about expanding to new communities?

最终我们在讨论的是，随着 MIT 向前发展， 我们是否要考虑扩展到新的群体？

Right now we think of our potential student body as the top whatever it is, two percent, three percent of students in the world.

目前我们把潜在学生群体定义为排名顶尖， 大概是全球排名前 2% 或 3% 的学生。

Should we be the top 10 percent?

我们是否应该面向前 10%？

So there was this notion of who we actually talk to?

进而有了这样的想法：我们究竟要与谁对话？

And we kind of strategically said we actually want to stay with the communities of people that we know.

从战略上我们大概说，我们实际上想留在我们所熟悉的人组成的社群里。

And we want to stay with an MIT of kind of style thing.

并且我们希望保持一种 MIT 的风格。

And that morphed into a thing that said we really want to change the dynamic of how a student interacts with MIT to something that can be lifelong.

事情演变成，我们想要的是改变学生与 MIT 互动的模式，使其成为一种终身的关系。

So there was this idea that right now you graduate MIT, and what it means basically means to be an alum is that every year the Institute sends you requests for money.

所以就有了这样一个想法，现在你从 MIT 毕业成为校友，基本上只意味着学院每年会向你发出捐款请求。

And we're saying shouldn't there be a different kind of thing with that where you can participate in this community intellectually for a long time?

我们说，难道不应该有另一种形式吗，让你可以在智识上长期参与到这个社区中？

So that was one of these things called lifelong education.

所以那就是一种所谓的 “终身教育”（lifelong education）的东西。

And so out of that strategic thing, there came another thing, saying well, we kind of decided on that as the direction.

于是，在那一轮战略规划之后，产生了另一个想法，说，好，我们大致已经决定了这个方向。

Let's mush out this lifelong learning thing.

我们来把这个终身学习的概念具体化。

Let's figure out what it is.

我们来搞明白它到底是什么。

We actually did another consulting engagement with Booz Allen, who came in as very analytical, saying is this going to work?

我们实际上请来了 Booz Allen 做另一轮咨询，他们非常分析性地来， 讨论“这行得通吗？”

And basically after long drawn-out things and analyses and talking to possible clients and competitors and offices at MIT about everything, they found it wasn't going to work.

然后基本上在经过了漫长的过程，各种分析， 与潜在客户、竞争对手以及 MIT 内部各办公室进行方方面面的沟通之后，他们发现行不通。

So they called in one of their spreadsheet ninjas, who made this giant thing with every possible parameter you could imagine, what are the production values, how long is the course, what's the client thing.

于是他们找来了他们的一位电子表格高手， 做了一个巨大的东西，包含了你能想象到的每一个可能的参数，产品价值有哪些、 课程多长、客户情况如何。

And basically it turned out that, I forget, if you've got 20,000 doing a course, you could kind of a break-even, maybe.

结果基本上是，我忘了，如果你有两万人上一门课，你或许能勉强收支平衡，大概。

So this whole committee was actually pretty-- oh my god, what are we going to do?

于是整个委员会当时都相当——老天爷， 我们咋办啊？

And finally, I think it was Dick Yue, there's some famous story--

最后，我想应该是 Dick Yue， 有个很著名的故事——

I don't know if you talked to him.

我不知道你有没有和他聊过。

There's this famous story about he was exercising or something.

有个著名的故事说，他当时在锻炼身体还是什么。

And it sort of came to him about well, why don't we take this stuff and give it away.

然后他突然灵光一现，诶，我们为什么不把这些东西直接免费送人呢。

And that sounds like a crazy idea.

这听起来是个疯狂的想法。

But then you sort of think well you know, if we're not going to make money charging alumni and other people to do this, maybe we can get foundations to pay for this.

但你接着会想到，好吧， 如果我们无法通过向校友和其他人收费来赚钱，也许我们可以让基金会来买单。

So it wasn't a totally crazy idea.

所以这也不完全是个疯狂的想法。

And then at the end of the summer what happened was the committee produced this report.

那年夏末，委员会最终提交了一份报告。

So that was the other thing that Dick did.

那是 Dick 做的另一件事。

MIT believes in data.

MIT 崇尚数据。

And he did this amazing thing, which is whenever the consultants would do anything, they'd interview somebody, and he'd sort of xerox the sheet.

他做了一件非常厉害的事情，就是每当顾问做什么事情时，比如要访谈某人， 他就会把那张纸复印下来。

And he put it in this big notebook.

然后把它们装进一个大笔记本里。

And he had a notebook which was literally this high.

他那个笔记本，真有这么高。

And when he'd come in to make a presentation, he'd put the notebook on the desk, saying the committee has done this research for its conclusions.

当他来做报告时，他会把笔记本往桌上一放，说委员会做了这项研究， 得出了这些结论。

And nobody would dare challenge him on that, despite the fact that nothing in the notebook was relevant to what he was saying.

没人敢质疑他，尽管笔记本里实际上没有一样和他说的事情有关系。

It was just a great, great ploy.

这真是个非常非常妙的策略。

But it's again, engineer's culture.

但这也再次体现了工程师文化。

We like data.

我们喜欢数据。

But the committee's report was this incredibly precise reasoned out, spreadsheet-backed, financial model thing about how we could do some for pay lifelong learning things with careful analysis.

委员会的报告是一份极其精确、 经过推敲、有电子表格支撑的财务模型，说明我们如何做一些付费的终身学习项目，分析得很仔细。

And then at the end, there was about two pages.

然后在报告的末尾，大约有两页纸的篇幅。

It said, and by the way, we have this other idea that we should just give it away.

它说，顺便提一下，我们还有另一个想法， 我们应该干脆把这些免费。

And we'll call it OpenCourseWare.

我们会叫它 OpenCourseWare。

With no analysis or anything.

没有任何分析之类的东西。

And then to its tremendous credit, Chuck Bastian, Bob and Tom Magnanti got inspired by this and said yeah, this one seems right.

接着，极为难能可贵的是，Chuck Bastian（注：此处原文或为 Chuck Vest）、 Bob 和 Tom Magnanti 受此启发，说，对， 这个看上去靠谱。

And that's what actually started the path towards OpenCourseWare.

这就是 OpenCourseWare 之路的起点。

And then there were a lot of talks with--

然后我们进行了很多沟通——

Chuck went and got money from the Hewlett and Mellon foundations.

Chuck 到 Hewlett 基金会和 Mellon 基金会那里筹到了资金。

And we did a bunch of things, talked with the faculty over the year.

我们也做了一系列的事情， 在这一年里与教师们沟通。

But that's kind of how it started.

但事情大致就是这样开始的。

And again, it started in this world of MIT is going to be the exemplar.

再说一次，它始于这样一种世界观： MIT 要树立一个榜样。

So we weren't talking really about distance education.

所以我们当时谈论的其实并不是远程教育。

We weren't even thinking about the students who were going to do it.

我们甚至不是在为那些将要使用它的学生考虑什么。

We were thinking about here MIT is exhibiting itself as a model.

我们考虑的是，MIT 要把自己作为典范展示。

It was right for 2000.

这在 2000 年是恰逢其时。

And it sort of grabbed everybody's imagination.

它在某种程度上抓住了每个人的想象力。

And then it happened as you said, at exactly the time that lots of these other universities were saying wow, we're going to make tremendous money for this.

接着，正如你所说的，它恰好发生在其他很多大学都在说“哇，我们要靠这个赚大钱了”的时候。

There were lots of start-ups.

当时有很多创业公司。

I don't know if people noticed.

我不知道人们有没有注意到。

I once went back and looked.

我曾经回头去查过。

And there were lots and lots of places that when we did the original McKinsey analysis, were saying, oh god, these people are starting.

当我们进行最初的麦肯锡分析时， 有很多很多地方都在说，噢天哪， 这些人要开始了。

Their company is starting.

他们的公司正在起步。

Their university is doing stuff.

他们的大学在做这些事情。

None of them are in business anymore.

如今它们没有一家还在运营了。

And it was just great that we can be so counter-intuitive as MIT.

而作为 MIT，我们能如此反直觉地行事，这真的很棒。

A very MIT thing.

这是一件非常具有 MIT 风格的事情。

INTERVIEWER: Can you talk a bit about the faculty reaction when OCW was first floated as a concept.

采访者：你能谈谈首次提出 OCW 这个概念时，教职员工的反应吗？

Supportive, not supportive, what was the response?

是支持，还是不支持，当时的回应是什么？

ABELSON: It was surprisingly supportive.

ABELSON：出人意料地支持。

And in fact Larry Bacow, who was chancellor then, basically said, look, you cannot go ahead with this unless you really go, really talk to the faculty.

事实上，当时担任校长的 Larry Bacow 基本上说， 听着，除非你们真的、真的去和教职工沟通，否则这个项目无法推进。

So there was a group of about four or five of us who made presentations to every single MIT department.

所以，我们有一个大约四五人的小组， 向 MIT 的每一个系做了演示。

And we listened to a lot of stuff.

我们听到了很多声音。

I'd say the predominant negative reaction was oh my god, you want to take my class notes and put them out on the internet for everybody to look at.

我得说，主要的负面反应是， 天哪，你们要把我的课堂讲义拿到互联网上让所有人都看到。

They're not good enough.

它们还不够好。

And we got really good it saying hey, you're willing to give this to MIT students who are paying $40,000 dollars a year to listen to you.

我们后来很擅长这样回答，嘿，你愿意把这些给 MIT 的学生看，他们每年付 4 万美元来听你的课。

And you don't think they're good enough to put out for free to other people to look at?

却觉得它们没有好到能给别人免费看吗？

So we learned to make interesting answers to those things.

所以我们学会了如何巧妙地回答这些问题。

But it was to me surprisingly positive.

但在我看来，整体反应出奇地积极。

What everyone was expecting was, oh my god, you're giving away my intellectual property.

大家原本预期的是，老天爷，你这是要把我的知识产权白送出去。

I mean there might have been five people who said that.

我是说可能有五个人这么说过。

But it was almost unheard of.

但那几乎是闻所未闻的。

It was much more than the other reaction I said: well god, you're showing my stuff in other than its pristine state after I've worked on the publication manuscript for a long time.

更多的是我提到的另一种反应： 唉老天，在我花了很长时间打磨出版稿件之后，你却要以不完美的状态展示我的东西。

But it was just very, very popular.

但总的来说，它非常、非常受欢迎。

And it certainly helped that the administration was so incredibly visibly positive about this.

而且管理层对这件事非常明显地积极支持， 肯定也起到了很大帮助。

But again OpenCourseWare got positioned.

所以话说回来，OpenCourseWare 确定了它的地位。

We made some adjustments, some tweaks in the way we told the story and what we did.

我们做了一些调整，我们在讲述故事的方式和具体做法上做了一些微调。

I frankly don't remember what they were.

老实说，我已经不记得具体是什么了。

But it was really very important to us that this came out as an expression of the MIT community.

但对我们来说至关重要的是，它最终是 MIT 社区整体的一种表达。

So it wasn't a administration driven, something, something, something.

它不是由行政部门推动的， 诸如此类的东西。

It really was an expression of what the faculty wanted to do.

它确实表达了教职员工想要做的事情。

INTERVIEWER: So you talked about OpenCourseWare as one example of MIT or what MIT does being an exemplar.

采访者：你刚才谈到把 OpenCourseWare 作为 MIT 或者说 MIT 的行为方式的一个典范。

Ten plus years out, what has OCW's impact been on the broader world?

十多年过去了，OCW 对更广泛的世界产生了什么影响？

ABELSON: Oh, well OCW created what's called Open Educational Resources.

ABELSON: 哦，OCW 开创了所谓的开放教育资源（Open Educational Resources）。

So there is now an enormous I want to say movement that's called OER, Open Educational Resources.

所以现在有一个巨大的，我想称之为运动,叫做 OER， 开放教育资源（Open Educational Resources）。

That word started at a UN conference which was talking about OpenCourseWare and some more things.

这个词源于一次联合国会议，讨论了 OpenCourseWare 和一些其他事情。

That's where the word got coined.

这个词就是在那里创造出来的。

And it got elevated to--

随后它被上升到——

I forget what the phrase is-- how do you think about education and the internet to improve the state of humanity?

我忘了具体措辞——如何思考教育和互联网，以改善人类的状况？

And really a very long thing.

那是一段很长的表述。

But now there's an enormous, enormous whole open educational resources movement.

但现在已经有了一个规模极其、极其庞大的开放教育资源运动。

You've got to remember when OpenCourseWare started, there was not the idea that universities at scale would put educational material on the internet for free.

你得记得，在 OpenCourseWare 刚起步的时候，还没有想法说，大量的高校会把教育材料免费放到互联网上。

And now that's, well sure, ho hum.

而现在已经变成，嗯当然了，有什么好奇怪的。

So it caused just a major change in the way people did it.

所以，它极大地改变了人们的做法。

And it was a combination of that the time was kind of right for it, the technology was right for it.

这是时机正好、技术成熟， 结合到一起的结果。

But also MIT put its institutional imprimatur on that idea.

也因为 MIT 为这个想法赋予了其机构权威的背书。

So it's been enormous.

所以它的影响是巨大的。

And not all of it identifies itself as universities.

并非所有参与者都自称是大学。

And not all of it identifies itself as certainly MIT or something.

也不都会标榜自己是 MIT 或者什么的。

But just the idea that you can now go to the internet and find a lot of educational material, that's what OpenCourseWare started.

但你如今可以上网找到大量教育材料，这个观念是由 OpenCourseWare 开创的。

INTERVIEWER: What do you see as the future for that movement?

采访者：你认为这场运动的未来会如何发展？

ABELSON: So this is something that we think about a lot with OpenCourseWare and a lot from places like Creative Commons.

ABELSON: 这是我们在 OpenCourseWare 以及像 Creative Commons 这样的地方经常会思考的事情。

I kind of want to say it's done.

我有点想说，它已经完成了使命。

Again, I have to say there really was a question, right, in 2000, about whether there could be a lot of free educational material on the internet.

刚才说了，在 2000 年左右， 确实存在一个问题说，互联网上是否能够有大量免费的教育材料。

It really was a question.

那确实曾是个问题。

Now it's not.

现在已经不是了。

And in a sense that's kind of happened.

某种意义上，这已经成为现实。

So the real future now is how do you make that stuff more usable?

所以未来真正在于，如何让这些材料更具可用性？

There's no sense of all the quality of it.

现在缺乏对其质量的整体认知。

There's no sense that I can really get certification that comes from it.

也没有一个概念说，我能够从中获得认证。

There's no real sense of how it fits together.

也不清楚这些材料如何整合在一起。

There's no sense of gosh, here are three different presentations of diffraction.

也不清楚比如说，这里有三份不同的对衍射的讲解。

How do they compare?

如何比较它们？

Which one should I use?

我该用哪一个？

So at the moment what's happening it's a tremendous amount of raw material that has not very effectively been mined.

所以目前的情况是，有海量的原始材料尚未得到非常有效的挖掘。

And what's happening now is there are lots and lots of both nonprofit companies and for profit start-ups that are trying to mine that in some effective way.

在当下，有许许多多的非营利公司和营利性初创企业正在尝试怎么有效地发掘它。

Nobody's cracked it yet.

还没有人破解它。

But that's where it needs to go.

但这正是必须前进的方向。

And it's kind of hard problem because it's one thing to publish a lot of material on the network.

这是个难题，因为在网络上发布大量材料是一回事。

But when you start talking about real education, you're talking about interaction with people and empowering groups to do stuff, thinking about did people actually learn the stuff, do you certify it, how do you certify it, how do you use it?

但当你开始谈论真正的教育时， 你谈论的是与人的互动、赋予群体做某事的能力，思考他们是否真的学会了， 要对它做认证吗，怎么做认证，怎么使用它？

So it's a lot harder work.

所以这是一项艰巨得多的工作。

And that's where the movement has to go.

这正是这场运动必须前进的方向。

INTERVIEWER: So you mentioned that a lot of that's unresolved.

采访者：你提到有很多问题尚未解决。

But are there directions or ideas that you have in terms of making this material more usable or things that need to be addressed?

但是，你有没有一些方向或想法，关于如何让这些材料更好用，或者有哪些问题需要解决？

ABELSON: Oh sure.

ABELSON：噢，当然。

I mean me and a thousand other people.

我是说，不只是我，还有成千上万的人。

They're all sorts of elements to it.

这里面有各种各样的要素。

Can I find something?

我能找到某个东西吗？

If I want to go find an explanation of magnetism that's really good for eighth graders, can I find that?

如果我想找一份非常适合初二学生的对磁力的解释，我能找到吗？

There are lots of places that are working on that.

有很多地方正在致力于解决这个问题。

Google is working on that.

Google 在做这个。

Creative Commons is working on that.

Creative Commons 在做这个。

Lots and lots of places doing that.

很多很多地方都在做这个。

The other one is how do you bridge the gap between even for profit textbooks and this open stuff?

另一个问题是，如何弥合哪怕是商业教科书和这些开放资源之间的差距？

Or to say it another way, if there's a lot of open stuff, there are a lot of people who are starting companies that say well, what's the missing piece in that, that I can add that'll be a sustainable business.

或者换种说法，如果现在有了大量的开放资源， 有很多人在创办公司说，嗯，这其中还缺少什么环节是我可以补充进去， 从而形成可持续的商业模式的？

And sometimes it's certification and sometimes it's editing of the things and sometimes it's organization and sometimes it's adding some special videos or something to it.

有时是认证，有时是内容编辑，有时是组织管理， 有时候是增加一些特别的视频或其他内容。

People just exploring that all over the map.

人们正在各个领域探索。

That really is the big thing in educational technology right now.

这确实是当前教育技术领域的大热点。

There are textbook companies that say how do I make a mixture of the stuff I hire people to write things, but also back on to all of this open stuff?

有些教科书公司会说，我怎样才能把东西混合起来，一边是花钱请人编写的内容，一边倚靠所有这些开放材料？

So there's not going to be one answer.

所以不会有一个单一的答案。

And I think there's going to be an explosion over the next oh five years, of people trying lots and lots of different things.

我认为在接下来的五年里，会出现一个爆发性的增长，人们会尝试很多很多不同的事物。

And who knows?

谁知道呢？

It might converge on something after a while.

过一段时间，它可能会收敛到某种东西上。

INTERVIEWER: So you've been involved in obviously other initiatives as well that are very, very significant, iCampus being one, DSpace.

采访者：显然你还参与过其他一些非常非常重要的项目，iCampus 是其中之一，还有 DSpace。

Talk a bit about those.

谈谈这些项目吧。

And I'm kind of lumping them together, just part in the interest of time.

只是因为时间关系，我把它们放在一起问了。

But I'm going to let you sort of tell me what you think are the most significant?

但我想请你讲讲，你认为哪些是最重要的？

And maybe just sort of wrapping it in the larger question of how technology has changed and continues to change the classroom experience?

也许可以把它包在一个更大的问题里，技术是如何改变了、 会如何继续改变课堂体验？

ABELSON: So sort of big area.

ABELSON：这确实是个相当大的领域。

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

采访者：是的。

And we can take it in pieces, if that's easy.

我们可以分几个部分来谈，如果那样容易些。

ABELSON: So DSpace is kind of not really about the classroom.

ABELSON：所以 DSpace 其实并不与课堂有关。

But it's one I like to talk about because that one's actually strategic.

但我想讲的是它，因为它是那个有战略意义的。

That was actually--

它实际上--

I almost want to say crafted by Ann Wolpert, who's the head of libraries, and me, having to do with the issue of, will the public be able to get access to university research?

我几乎想说，是由图书馆馆长 Ann Wolpert 和我共同精心设计的，涉及的问题是， 公众是否能够获得大学研究成果的访问权？

So OpenCourseWare is about this vision of the educational materials of the world's greatest institutions are available to all of humanity.

OpenCourseWare 的愿景是让世界上最伟大的学府们的教育材料能对全人类开放。

DSpace is about the vision of are the research let's say products of the top research enterprises in the world available to all of humanity?

DSpace 的愿景是，世界顶尖研究企业的研究成果，或者说产品， 是否应当向全人类开放？

It's that vision.

是这个愿景。

And then you sort of want to say well okay, well it's easy.

然后你会想说，好吧，这很简单。

In fact, we should just post this on the internet.

实际上，我们只要把它发布到互联网上就行了。

And then you say why not?

然后你会问，为什么不呢？

And then you find that there's no sense of gosh, what's it's mean to post it on the internet?

然后你会发现，并没有一个清晰的认识说老天， 把东西发布到互联网上意味着什么？

Is there a trusted place that has a pedigree in putting my research materials out in a way that they're going to be proper stewardship of those?

有没有一个值得信赖的、声誉良好的地方，能以一种妥善的管理方式发布我的研究材料？

And so we said one place to do that is the research libraries.

于是我们说，有个地方能做这件事，就是研究机构的图书馆。

So the libraries of the top research institutions could fulfill that role.

所以，顶尖研究机构的图书馆可以承担这一角色。

And DSpace was really about that.

DSpace 就是为了这个目的。

This was very early.

那是很早期的事情。

And it was kind of saying well look, we see-- when was this, 1999 or something?

它大概是在说，你看，我们看到——这是什么时候， 1999 年左右？

We kind of see this thing brewing with the ability to put stuff on the internet.

我们看到，从我们能在互联网发布内容开始， 它就在酝酿之中了。

And we see this is going to be coming more and more of a controversial flash point thing.

我们预感到这将成为一个越来越有争议的引火点。

We were absolutely right about that.

我们对此的判断完全正确。

And we said what's missing from that is the notion that a university research library could be a place that a research scientist would trust as a place to look around the internet.

我们说，这里面缺少的是这样一个概念，大学研究图书馆可以成为研究科学家信任的场所，用于探索互联网上的资源。

So DSpace was about creating that.

DSpace 的目标是创造这样一个地方。

And that's happened to a large extent.

这很大程度上已经成为现实了。

It needs to happen a lot more.

但还需要进一步普及。

We're now in the interesting stage of that where the publishers and journals are fighting back.

我们现在正处于一个有意思的阶段， 出版商和期刊开始反击了。

So you know the famous Gandhi thing.

你知道甘地的那个名言。

First, they ignore you.

起先，他们无视你。

Then they laugh at you.

然后他们嘲笑你。

Then they fight you.

接着他们攻击你。

Then they lose.

最后他们输了。

So we're sort of starting to get into then they fight us stage.

我们现在有点开始进入 “接着他们攻击我们”的阶段了。

But I have a lot of optimism that'll work out.

但我对此非常乐观，相信会成功的。

So DSpace is not particularly about the classroom.

所以 DSpace 与课堂没有特别直接的关系。

But the classroom stuff is a very, very complicated mix because part of what you want to think about is making it expansive, making this world of sharing, making this world where stuff is very possible.

但课堂教学是一个非常、非常复杂的混合体，因为一方面你想让它具有扩展性， 创造一个分享的世界，创造这个让这些事情都很可能实现的世界。

But at the same time, you want to think about what's really special about MIT.

但同时，你也要思考 MIT 真正的独特之处是什么。

What's the stuff that I want to do in my class that I really don't want to share, because I want to say to these students, my god, you're not just in any place.

什么东西是我在自己的课堂上想做， 但真的不想分享出去的，因为我想对这些学生说，老天爷，你们可不是在随便一个什么地方。

You're at MIT.

你们是在 MIT。

And this thing that's happening in this classroom now is really about our small group.

此时此刻在这个教室内的事情， 是关于我们这个小群体的。

And it's personal things.

是个人化的事情。

And I don't know where that ends out.

我不知道这最终会走向何方。

But I think both of those things are happening at the same time.

但我认为这两种情况在同时发生。

And so that ends up being a whole bunch of different kinds of initiatives that look at that in different ways.

于是就产生了各种不同类型的倡议， 以不同的方式看待这个问题。

So one of them is the thing we funded under the Microsoft iCampus Alliance, which is the notion of remote laboratories, the iLabs thing that initially started with Jesus del Alamo in electronic engineering that said, gosh, I'm doing these labs for MIT students who are taking this thing.

其中之一是我们在微软 iCampus 联盟资助下的项目，即远程实验室的概念，也就是最初由电子工程系的 Jesus del Alamo 发起的 iLabs 项目，它说，老天，我给修这门课的 MIT 学生做这些实验。

And just think about what it takes to a lab.

想象下做一个实验需要些什么。

You come in, and you have to spend 30 minutes setting it up, and the equipment's broken, and you have to go through the safety class to make sure you don't do things.

你走进来，先花 30 分钟做准备，结果设备坏了， 你还得参加安全课程以确保你不会做错事。

When the reality is, you're just doing a three minute experiment.

而实际上，你只是要做一个三分钟的实验。

Wouldn't it be nice if you could do that from your dorm room over the internet?

如果你能通过互联网在宿舍里完成它， 不是很好吗？

And that was sort of where Jesus's his vision of that started in the circuits course.

这就是 Jesús 在开创这个电路课程时所抱有的愿景。

And then we sort of said yeah, once you do that, once you can be across the campus, hey it's on the web.

然后我们想，是啊，如果能做到这一点，你就能跨越校园，嘿，因为它就在网上。

It could be across the world.

它可以跨越整个世界。

So there's this view of can you take those real laboratory experiences and in a sense make them accessed remotely?

于是就有这样一种设想，能否把真实的实验室体验，某种意义上实现远程访问？

So that's a little bit of trying to bridge this, hey, it's special, but it's also accessible kind of thing.

所以这有点像试图弥合这种“嘿，它很特别， 但人们也能拿到它”的矛盾。

The stuff that I'd love to be playing with now is how you do like remote tutoring?

我现在很想尝试的东西是如何进行比如远程辅导？

How do I make it so if I'm in some kind of laboratory or some kind of classroom session where I'm getting individual instruction, you could also imagine doing that from across the world?

我怎样才能做到，如果我在某种实验室或某种课堂环节中接受个别指导， 你也可以设想从世界另一端来做同样的事情？

Those are some of the things that I'm trying to think about with the ed tech council right now.

这些是我目前正试图与教育技术委员会一起思考的问题。

And then at the same time there's the evolution of OpenCourseWare like things.

同时，还有像如何演进 OpenCourseWare 之类的事情。

We're sort of moving to a new stage in that where the idea that there's effectively a book on the internet, well that's good.

我们正进入一个新阶段，现有的这种“互联网上本质上有一本书”的想法， 这很好。

But people want more.

但人们想要的更多。

And we have to think about what the next stuff is.

我们必须思考下一步是什么。

INTERVIEWER: So given that so much of this revolves around remote learning--

采访者：既然这么多事情都围绕着远程学习——

iLab or OpenCourseWare--

无论是 iLab 还是 OpenCourseWare——

what is the actual role of the physical location of the classroom and the class that gets together with a faculty member or an instructor going forward?

那么，教室的实体空间，以及与教师或讲师聚在一起的课堂，在未来实际上会扮演什么角色？

ABELSON: Yeah.

ABELSON：是啊。

What an incredibly good question.

这个问题问得太好了。

Right.

对。

Because again on the one hand, there are some places in education, not the large lecture or anything, where you really, really, really want the sense of intimacy.

因为刚才说的，一方面，在教育中有一些场合，不是那种大型讲座之类的， 你会真的、真的、非常需要那种亲密感。

I mean as much as you could ever want, you really have to be, I'm here for you.

我的意思是，做到什么程度都不为过，你真的必须表现出， 我在这里是为了你们。

I'm here for you students and we're doing this thing.

我在这里是为了你们这些学生，我们一起做这件事。

And we're engaged in this discussion right now.

我们此刻正投入于这场讨论中。

And I don't want this stuff going outside the classroom because what's happening with us right now is very special.

我不想让这些东西流出课堂， 因为此刻我们的事情非常特别。

I'm telling you things that we just don't--

我正在告诉你们一些我们根本不会——

this is about us right now.

这是此刻仅属于我们之间的。

And that's really, really important and will be important forever.

这一点非常非常重要，而且永远都会重要。

The hard part is you have to ask yourself how much of that sense of intimacy is technology now going to be able to supply?

困难之处在于你必须问自己， 现在的技术能在多大程度上提供这种亲密感？

And we're going to be figuring this.

我们将不断探索这一点。

Three years ago, it was a big deal to get on a video conference with somebody.

三年前，能和别人进行视频会议还挺了不起的。

And I do that with people across the world from my office and it's no more than sending a note saying hey, are you on Skype now?

而现在我和世界各地的人在我的办公室里做这事，不过就是发条消息说，嘿，你现在在 Skype 上吗？

Let's connect.

我们连一下吧。

And we have a conversation.

然后我们就交谈起来。

You have to ask yourself well, what are you losing by not being physically present there?

你必须问自己，没有亲临现场让你失去了什么？

And there's just a lot of research on that.

关于这一点有大量的研究。

They're all these shared conference spaces or something.

比如那些共享会议空间之类的。

I don't think people have done enough of thinking about that with respect to education and seminars and things.

我认为人们在教育和研讨会等方面对这个问题的思考还不够。

But sure, people are going to try it.

不过当然，人们会尝试的。

And we're going to find out.

我们会找到答案。

A lot of people feel like they're a little scared to go there because the implications of that is that maybe the physical thing doesn't matter for that.

很多人有点害怕朝那个方向发展，因为这意味着也许实体的东西对此来说并不重要。

And then you say well, that wasn't the important part about the physical location.

然后你会说，好吧，实体空间重要的部分不是那些。

The important part about the physical location is that you're hanging around in the same place.

实体空间重要的部分在于你们在同一个地方共处。

There are all these serendipitous things that happen, what do they call it, the water cooler effect.

会有很多不期而遇的事情发生， 他们叫什么来着，饮水机效应。

And that's the really important thing about having a physical location.

那才是拥有实体空间真正重要的地方。

And then you sort of say, well you know there are these people who are working on that too.

然后你会说，嗯，其实也有人在研究这些。

And you have some stuff and you can counter people.

有一些东西让你可以与人互动。

There have been all these experiments with virtual worlds, which seem to had a lot more pizazz three years ago than they do now.

已经有各种各样对虚拟世界的尝试，三年前它们似乎比现在有活力得多。

But you're going to find technology being able to do pieces of that.

但你会发现，技术能够实现其中的一些部分。

And I don't know, we're going to find out which versions of that were important.

我也不知道，我们会弄明白其中哪些形式是重要的。

We can all make up science fiction stories about how physical presence doesn't matter.

我们是可以编造科幻故事说， 实体到场并不重要。

But the point is for at least right now, physical presence matters a whole hell of a lot.

但重点是，至少在目前， 实体到场相当重要。

And we'll sort of piece together the things that make it work and are necessary and which can be supplanted.

我们会拼凑出哪些东西是核心而必要的，哪些是可以被取代的。

INTERVIEWER: So I want to return too to something that you said not too long ago about sort of that point when you started thinking about how MIT as an institution deals with these kinds of questions.

采访者：我还想回到你不久前提到的一点，就是当你开始思考 MIT 作为一个学院如何应对这些问题的时候。

And I guess my question is, given this very thorny question that we were just discussing, how should MIT deal with that?

我觉得我想问的是，鉴于我们刚刚讨论的这个非常棘手的问题，MIT 应该如何应对？

How should MIT going forward, thinking about the next five, 10, whatever years, deal with this very, very important question of the classroom versus remote learning?

MIT 如何前进，展望未来五年、十年或更长时间，来处理这个非常非常重要的 “课堂教学与远程学习”之争的问题？

And is it technology driven, is it policy driven, is it a combination?

是技术驱动的，是政策驱动的，还是两者的结合？

ABELSON: I kind of want to say it's ethically driven.

ABELSON：我有点想说，是由道德驱动的。

I really do feel that MIT has an almost ethical obligation to say look, we are a precious resource.

我真的觉得 MIT 有一种近乎道德上的义务去说， 看，我们是一项宝贵的资源。

We understand about learning and technology and things.

我们理解学习和技术等相关事物。

I hate to sound maudlin.

我不想说得那么煽情。

We have an obligation to humanity to make that better.

我们对人类负有责任，去改善它。

And what's the way in which MIT can be an exemplar of that and a model of that?

而 MIT 如何能成为这方面的典范和榜样？

And it means that when you think about what we should do in educational technology at MIT, you really are thinking that you're a model for the rest of the world.

这意味着，当你思考我们应该在 MIT 的教育技术方面做些什么时， 你实际上是在考虑做全世界的榜样。

And how would you like that to happen?

你希望怎样做到它？

How would you like to play out?

你希望事情如何展开？

When we do something great in a classroom, we are obligated to say how can other people follow that or how could other people think about whether it's a good thing to do.

当我们在课堂上做一些很棒的事情时， 我们有义务说，其他人如何效仿，或者如何分辨这是否是一件值得做的好事。

It's not just about MIT.

这不仅仅关乎 MIT。

It's a world resource that those of us who are teaching are just privileged to be part of.

它是一项世界性的资源，我们这些从事教学的人只是享有特权来参与其中。

And that privilege is not only about MIT undergraduate body.

而这种特权不仅仅关乎 MIT 的本科生群体。

It's about how the world is going to look at it.

而是关于世界将如何看待它。

So that doesn't tell you what to do but it's the sense of obligation that you feel in doing that, that it's not just looking inward.

这不会直接告诉你该怎么做，但是这样想会带给你一种责任感，不能只关注内部。

There are places that are not like that at all.

有些地方完全不是这样的。

I mean Harvard by and large is not like that.

我是说，哈佛大学大体上就不是这样。

But MIT is the sense of god, we're doing it for the world.

但 MIT 的感觉是，老天，我们是为了世界而做这件事的。

And that's how I think about the institutional thing when we do educational technology.

这就是我在开展教育技术工作时在学院层面的思考。

INTERVIEWER: This isn't about the classroom specifically, but it very much relates to what you just said.

采访者：这个问题虽然不是专门关于课堂的， 但与你刚才所说的密切相关。

I wanted to ask you about the open access policy.

我想问一下关于“开放获取政策”（open access policy）的问题。

ABELSON: Oh, right.

ABELSON：哦，对。

That threads through lots and lots and lots of this.

它贯穿了访谈里的很多很多事情。

I talked before about DSpace.

我之前谈到了 DSpace。

So that's open access.

那就是“开放获取”。

I'm also one of the founding directors for the Free Software Foundation, which is--

我还是自由软件基金会（Free Software Foundation）的创始董事之一，这——

again growth, we talked before about the AI Lab culture.

同样生长于，我们刚才聊过的 AI 实验室的文化。

It grows right out of that.

它就是从那里孕育而生的。

That it's about a community thing.

它关心的事情是社区。

And the precious thing is that you allow people to build on each other's work.

它宝贵之处在于，你让人们能在彼此工作的基础上继续创造。

So a lot of times when people talk about open access, they say gee, I ought to be able to read some stuff on the internet or be able to do stuff or it's locked away and I shouldn't have to pay to get it.

很多时候，当人们谈论“开放获取”时，他们会说，哎呀，我应该能够在互联网上读到一些东西，或者做到一些事情，结果它被锁起来了， 我不应该付费才能拿到它。

That's not the spirit, that's not the soul of it.

那不是它的精神，那不是它的灵魂所在。

The soul of it is that we can build a shared thing together.

它的灵魂在于我们可以共同创造一个共享的东西。

I always use the metaphor of there was this thing that happened in the Middle Ages where the whole town together got and built the cathedral.

我总是用一个比喻，中世纪发生过这样一件事，整个城镇的人聚在一起，共同建造了一座大教堂。

And I sort of think about the information environment as the opportunity to make that kind of cathedral.

我某种程度上把信息环境看作是建造那种大教堂的机会。

That humanity as a whole gets smarter because we can rebuild what each others are doing.

人类作为一个整体会变得更加聪明，因为我们能够重建彼此正在做的事情。

And we can build on it.

而且我们可以在其之上继续创造。

So that's for me, what open access is about.

所以对我来说，这就是“开放获取”的意义所在。

That's what OpenCourseWare is about.

这也是 OpenCourseWare 的意义所在。

So it's critical if you look at the license behind OpenCourseWare or free software, any of it.

所以有一点至关重要，如果你去看 OpenCourseWare 或者自由软件背后的许可协议，无论哪一个。

One of it is that people get to use it how they want.

其中一点是，人们可以按照自己的意愿去使用它。

But the other is that people get to modify and we republish it and make it better and improve.

但另一个是人们可以修改它，重新发布它， 让它变得更好，改进它。

So for me that's just central to what people call open access.

对我来说，这就是人们所谓的 “开放获取”的核心。

Open access is in some sense a bad word because it doesn't have this sense of building on each other's work.

从某种意义上说，“开放获取”这个词取得不好， 因为它没有体现出在彼此工作基础上创造的含义。

I'm sort of playing with this new slogan that I want to call the remixed university.

我最近在琢磨一个新口号，我想称之为 “重混大学”（remixed university）。

That's the stage after just the open university.

那是在简单的“开放大学”之后的阶段。

It's not so interesting.

后者并没那么有趣。

I can go look at the classes that MIT teaches.

我是可以去看 MIT 开设的课程。

It's can that be a thing from which I can build even better stuff than MIT is doing.

有趣之处在于，有没有可能让我以此为基础创造出来比 MIT 在做的还要好的东西。

And that to me is just a central meme in how I hope the internet continues to go.

对我来说，这是一个核心理念，我希望互联网能按它来继续发展。

The internet started a lot of that.

互联网开创了很多这方面的事物。

Much of it's being threatened.

其中很大一部分正受到威胁。

But I think part of it is demonstrating to people the value of that.

我认为，这项工作里有一部分工作就是向人们展示这个理念的价值。

INTERVIEWER: So in talking or thinking a bit about your work in protecting the intellectual commons, you mentioned the Free Software Foundation, which is definitely something that I wanted to talk to you about.

采访者：所以，在谈论或思考你在保护知识共享方面的工作时，你提到了自由软件基金会，这肯定是我想和你聊的话题。

Tell me about Creative Commons, another I think important part of this.

请讲讲 Creative Commons，我认为这是其中另一个重要的部分。

ABELSON: Right.

ABELSON: 没错。

There was this magical couple years where we started DSpace, we started OpenCourseWare, we showed Creative Commons, right around 2000.

有那么神奇的几年，我们启动了 DSpace， 启动了 OpenCourseWare，展示了 Creative Commons， 大约在 2000 年左右。

So I had the tremendous fortune of actually working with Larry Lessig.

我非常幸运能够与 Larry Lessig 共事。

We tried a joint course between Harvard and MIT when he was formulating these ideas about open culture and things.

当他正在构思一些关于开放文化等事物的想法时， 我们曾尝试在哈佛大学和 MIT 之间开设一门联合课程。

And Creative Commons kind of started in a couple of discussions, the sense of should there be something about sharing and commons that could happen in terms of law or policy?

Creative Commons 算是始于几次讨论，关于是否应该在法律或政策方面做一些关于共享和公共领域的事情？

Larry had just recently unsuccessfully argued Eldred v. Ashcroft before the Supreme Court.

Larry 当时刚刚在最高法院就 Eldred 诉 Ashcroft 案辩论失败。

So that was when Congress extended copyright by another 20 years.

那是国会将版权期限又延长了 20 年的时候。

And that came up to the Supreme Court.

那件案子上诉到了最高法院。

And Larry argued at the Supreme Court and he lost.

Larry 在最高法院进行了辩论，但输了。

The Supreme Court basically said well, you may have shown that this is a bad idea to extend copyright.

最高法院基本上说，你或许证明了延长版权是个坏主意。

But by the way, it's Congress that makes the copyright law, not us.

但顺便一说，制定版权法的是国会，不是我们。

And Larry was looking for some constructive reaction to that.

Larry 当时正在对此寻找一些有建设性的回应。

I was thinking about some kind of way of rewarding people effectively for putting things into the public domain.

我当时在思考一种方式，从实质上来回报那些将作品放入公共领域的人。

What could you do by policy to stimulate that kind of sharing?

在政策层面，你可以做些什么来激发这种共享？

We talked about that.

我们讨论了这个问题。

Larry found some funding.

Larry 找到了一些资金。

And we got this idea of Creative Commons.

于是我们有了 Creative Commons 这个想法。

There were small group of about, I want to say about 10 of us.

我们有个小团队，大约有十个人左右吧。

And sort of said gee, what we want to do is in the phrase, brand the public domain.

我们说，哎呀，我们想做的事情，用一句话概括，就是 “为公共领域打造品牌”。

We wanted people to be aware that the shared stuff that you can use and reuse was not sort of the detritus.

我们希望人们意识到，那些你可以使用和重用的共享资源并不是某种废弃物。

The law in the US talks about abandoning something to the public domain.

美国法律谈到将某物"遗弃"给公共领域。

It was not sort of this invisible stuff.

它不是这种没人注意的东西。

One of the things you can do on the internet is you can actually give that an identity and make people aware of it.

在互联网上你能做的一件事是，你可以给它一个身份，让人们意识到它的存在。

That was the soul of Creative Commons.

那才是 Creative Commons 的灵魂。

And then it kind of linked into some stuff that I'd been doing with the Web Consortium that said oh by the way, one of the things you might want to do if you're going to make licenses crafted to that, you want to make those licenses machine readable so machines can identify that on the internet.

然后它又和我与万维网联盟（WebConsortium） 合作的事情联系起来， 说顺便一提，如果你要为这个目的设计许可协议，你可能会想让机器能读取这些许可， 以便机器能在互联网上识别它们。

So that's the start of Creative Commons.

这就是 Creative Commons 的起点。

And that program is sort of still going ahead.

这个项目目前仍在继续前进。

It's got a long, long, long way to go.

它还有很长、很长、很长的路要走。

I remember we were sitting around and saying well, what would be success?

我记得我们曾坐在一起讨论说， 怎样才算是成功了？

How many things do you think should have these licenses?

你认为有多少东西应该采用这些许可协议？

So I'm always the poor non-visionary.

我总是那个缺乏远见的人。

Right.

对。

And I said, gosh if we got a couple of million of things on the net with the Creative Commons, that would be really good.

我说，天哪，如果网络能有数百万个采用 Creative Commons 的东西， 那就真的很不错了。

And Larry said well, I actually think all of it should be Creative Commons.

而 Larry 则说，我其实认为所有内容都应该采用 Creative Commons。

And then we seem to have compromised.

然后我们似乎折中了一下。

Now there's about 200 million Creative Commons documents on the net.

现在网上大约有 2 亿份采用 Creative Commons 的文档。

So it will also hit a meme and expand it.

所以它也会成为一个热门的理念，然后扩展它。

And by the way, had a lot to do with OpenCourseWare.

顺便说一下，这与 OpenCourseWare 有很大关系。

So I was very active in the start up of both of those.

我在这两者的创立过程中都非常活跃。

And from the point of view of Creative Commons, MIT was the first sort of big, important place to adopt Creative Commons licenses.

从 Creative Commons 的角度看， MIT 是第一个采用 Creative Commons 许可的重要机构。

And from the point of view of OpenCourseWare, we wanted there to be a lot of freely licensed stuff on the web.

而从 OpenCourseWare 的角度看，我们希望网络上有大量自由许可的资源。

So in particular when I put up my lectures on OpenCourseWare and I want to put some illustrations into my lecture, there's a lot of Creative Commons licensed stuff that I could just use.

特别是当我把自己的讲座放到 OpenCourseWare 上， 并且想在讲义中加入一些插图时，我有大量采用 Creative Commons 许可的资源可以直接使用。

So that program still hasn't unfolded a lot.

所以这个项目还没有完全展开。

But it was very consciously--

但它是非常有意识地——

at least I thought about it.

至少我是这么想的。

I was working on those two things together.

我是在同时推进这两件事情。

INTERVIEWER: You mentioned that open access or the intellectual commons is under threat.

采访者：你提到开放获取或知识共享正面临威胁。

Can you talk a bit about that, the current environment now as opposed to when you were pioneering all of this?

你能谈谈这一点吗，现在的环境与你当初开创这一切时相比有什么不同？

ABELSON: Well like I said, we've gone from the stage of they ignore us to the stage where they laugh at us to the stage where they are actually fighting us.

ABELSON：嗯就像刚才说的，我们已经从 “他们无视我们”的阶段，走过了“他们嘲笑我们”的阶段， 到了“他们开始对抗我们”的阶段。

The rhetoric in Congress now is we're stealing all of this stuff.

如今国会里的论调是， 我们在窃取这些东西。

Everybody is stealing stuff on the internet, that why don't you pay for it?

人人都在互联网上偷东西，你们为什么不为此付费？

Gosh, the US economy depend so much on intellectual property and exporting that, we have to protect the stuff on the network.

天哪，美国经济如此依赖知识产权及其出口，我们必须保护网络上的东西。

And the whole rhetoric is completely dominated by that.

整个论调完全被这种观点所主导。

I mean part of the problem is that Creative Common sounds a lot like communist. So everyone says gosh, you guys are a bunch of communists.

我的意思是，部分问题在于 Creative Commons 听起来很像"共产主义"。所以每个人都说天哪， 你们这群人是共产主义者。

You want to steal our stuff.

你们想偷走我们的东西。

Oh my god, there was an article when Creative Commons was first starting up, in was it Billboard, which talked about gosh, there is this young composer who puts his music up on a Creative Commons thing.

老天爷，Creative Commons 刚起步时有一篇文章，在《告示牌》（Billboard）上，讲到老天， 有位年轻的作曲家把他的音乐放到了 Creative Commons 的平台上。

And this turned out to be a great hit.

结果它大受欢迎。

And now he can't get any monetary value to it because he gave it away.

现在他无法从中获得任何经济价值，因为他把它免费送出去了。

And he's dying of AIDS and can't pay for the medication that he needs.

他快要死于艾滋病，却买不起他需要的药物。

And you Creative Commons people are the ones who is responsible for this guy dying of AIDS.

你们 Creative Commons 的这些人就是导致他死于艾滋病的罪魁祸首。

And there's this whole rhetoric that's around it, because people are starting to see that it's getting serious.

围绕这个事情有了这一整套说辞， 因为人们开始意识到事情变得严重了。

And you have a lot of business models that are simply based on the fact that you could control the distribution channels.

有许多商业模式本身就是建立在你能够控制分发渠道这一事实上。

So a lot of people think that those of us in Creative Commons are against copyright and against commercialism.

因此，很多人认为我们这些参与 Creative Commons 的人反对版权、反对商业主义。

And that's just not true.

完全不是这样的。

I mean Creative Commons is built in copyright.

我是说，Creative Commons 是建立在版权之上的。

And the thing that I think is bad is not that people are making money, it's that they're exerting over-control.

我认为糟糕的事情不在于人们在赚钱，而是他们在施加过度的控制。

So if there is a way to, without exerting that kind of control, realize money from this stuff, well great.

如果有一种方式，能在不施加那种控制的情况下，从这些东西中盈利，那很好。

I mean I love it if people say gee, we've got a business and it's working on Creative Commons stuff.

我很乐意如果有人说，我们有一门基于 Creative Commons 的东西运作的的生意。

But maybe it's a service business.

也许那是一项服务型的业务。

Or maybe it's an advising kind of business or maybe it's some other spin where you use the free material to bolster the fact that you're providing other stuff of value.

或者也许是一项咨询类的业务，又或者是某种其他形式，利用免费材料来支撑你提供其他有价值的内容。

And I think that's where this stuff needs to go.

我认为那是这事情应当发展的方向。

But the particular thing that works is very sensitive to the state of technology of the web.

但哪种模式能奏效，很大程度上取决于网络技术的发展状态。

And that's evolving very, very fast. And it's just sort of exploring more, exploring more business models.

而技术的发展非常、非常快。所以这事就是不断探索，探索更多的商业模式。

But when I said people are fighting it, by and large you're seeing people in the old business models who of course are established, who of course have stories that Congress understands.

但当我说人们在与之对抗时， 大体上你看到的是那些旧商业模式中的人， 他们当然已经站稳了脚跟，当然有国会能够听懂的说辞。

So it's always hard when you're trying to make policy and you have a vision of what could be.

所以当你试图制定政策并对未来可能的样子有一个愿景时，事情总是很困难的。

A vision of what could be is never powerful compared to a vision of what is.

一个关于“可能会是什么”的愿景从来都不如一个关于 “现在是什么”的视野那样强大。

And it just takes a long time.

并且这需要很长的时间。

INTERVIEWER: So in moving towards wrapping up just a bit, in these two related but somewhat differing areas of open networks, open access, and educational technology with a focus on this whole question of the remoteness or the locality of education, MIT has been obviously historically a leader in both of those areas, if you think about OpenCourseWare as one example of many.

采访者：那么我们试着开始收尾，在这两个相互关联但又有所不同的领域， 开放网络、开放获取，以及聚焦于教育的远程属性或局域性这一整体问题的教育技术， 显然 MIT 在历史上一直都是这两个领域的领导者，如果你把 OpenCourseWare 视为众多例子之一的话。

What should MIT be doing looking ahead to continue to lead and be ethical as you said?

MIT 在未来应该做些什么来继续保持领先地位和道德准则，如你刚才所说的那样？

I mean are there things that MIT is not doing that it should be doing or that it is doing that it should continue to do?

我的意思是，有没有哪些事情是 MIT 目前没做但应该做的，或者是正在做且应该继续做下去的？

ABELSON: So one of the things that MIT is not doing, and I'm not sure why not, is we are currently making a lot of partnerships with institutions around the world, which I think is fantastic.

ABELSON：MIT 目前没在做的一件事是， 我不确定为什么，尽管我们正与世界各地的研究机构建立大量合作关系， 我认为这非常棒。

But too often there is no educational piece in those partnerships.

但在这些合作关系中，往往缺乏教育的成分。

So we talk about MIT's association with some research institute and partly because of what these other places want from MIT and whether they view MIT, they sort of say this is a great research partnership.

我们与某些研究机构谈论 MIT 的合作， 一部分出于这些其他机构想从 MIT 得到什么以及他们如何看待 MIT，他们会说这是一个很棒的科研合作。

And one of the things MIT needs to be insisting on is what's the place of students and undergraduates in that kind of partnership?

而 MIT 需要坚持的一点是， 在这种合作关系中，学生和本科生的位置在哪里？

MIT needs to say as part of leading the world, we deeply believe that what makes an institution like MIT work is the integration of research and education.

MIT 需要声明，作为引领世界的一部分， 我们深信 MIT 这样的机构得以运作的关键在于研究与教育的结合。

MIT is not saying that strongly enough.

MIT 在这方面表达得还不够强有力。

And I think that's another place where MIT needs to lead.

我认为这也是 MIT 需要发挥领导作用的另一个地方。

It's saying how do you become a great institution?

是说，如何成为一个伟大的研究机构？

It's not only a good idea to be involved in education, but it's integral to what makes the place successful.

参与教育不仅是个好主意，而且是让这个地方成功的关键因素。

So there's a thing MIT is not doing right now, that I really wish it were going more.

这是 MIT 目前没在做的事情，我真心希望它能在这方面做得更多。

The other thing that I'm personally working on with the Educational Technology Council and with the provosts is this notion of opening the walls of the university in the sense that it's not merely let's say the OpenCourseWare vision or the DSpace vision that says MIT puts stuff out that allows the world to participate.

我个人正在与教育技术委员会以及教务长们一起推进的另一件事，是 “打开大学围墙”的理念，这不仅仅是指像 OpenCourseWare 或 DSpace 那样的愿景，让 MIT 把东西放出去，让世界能参与。

It's that there's a way of taking stuff in.

而是要有办法把东西吸纳进来。

What role in terms of educational resources do our alumni play?

在教育资源方面，我们的校友扮演什么角色？

If you take the combined MIT alumni, which are what now, 80,000, 90,000, you have a considerable fraction of the technological power of the world.

如果把 MIT 校友加在一起，现在是多少， 八万，九万？你就拥有了全球科技力量中相当大的一部分。

How does MIT use that as a research for improving our education and again creating a model of how top technology people can contribute to institutions in the world.

MIT 怎样能利用这一点来研究如何改进我们的教育，并且像刚才提到的，树立一个典范来展示顶尖技术人才如何为世界上的研究机构做出贡献。

MIT is not doing that enough.

MIT 在这方面的努力还不够。

That's a little bit of what we're trying to work on now.

这是我们现在尝试解决的一部分事情。

In a world where, oh some university I want to mention and say we could teach calculus to 50,000 people in some foreign country, how do we use technology to allow our undergraduates to have tremendously good international experiences, while taking some MIT calculus?

在这样一个世界里，我想提下某所大学说我们可以给国外的五万人教微积分，我们如何利用技术让我们的本科生获得极佳的国际体验， 同时还能修读 MIT 的微积分课程？

Are there ways we can translate little pieces of MIT so that MIT students can have some of these experiences without feeling that they have to blow off courses for a semester?

是否有办法转化 MIT 的一小部分， 让 MIT 的学生能够获得这些体验， 而不用觉得他们必须水掉一整个学期的课？

The mechanical engineering department talks about wouldn't it be great if students in mechanical engineering could take two weeks off and go build cars and race them on the Isle of White.

机械工程系在讨论，如果机械工程的学生能休假两周， 去怀特岛造车并拿它们赛车， 那该多好。

How do we make that possible?

我们如何使之成为可能？

So that's a direction where I think MIT needs to go.

这是我认为 MIT 应当前进的一个方向。

I said there's this buzz word, the remixed university.

我刚才提到了一个流行词，"重混大学"。

How do we make that possible and how does MIT lead in showing how you can make that possible?

我们如何实现它，MIT 又如何在展示这种可能性方面发挥领导作用？

INTERVIEWER: I mean MIT obviously is a place with tremendous technical technological expertise.

采访者：我想说，MIT 显然是一个拥有强大技术专长的地方。

But our conversation has ranged over all sorts of topics that go beyond simple technology, policy issues, just how we live our lives in the world.

但我们的谈话涉及了各种各样的话题， 超越了单纯的技术、政策问题，触及到我们在世界上如何生活。

And I'm wondering if you could talk a bit about what special or particular role technologists, engineers should or could play in those broader ethical, philosophical, policy kinds of questions?

我在想，能否谈谈什么特殊或者特定的角色， 是技术人员、工程师在这些更广泛的伦理、哲学、政策类问题中， 应该或能够扮演的？

ABELSON: Well, part is the easy thing about just knowing the consequences or the likely consequences of certain kinds of investments or policies.

ABELSON：嗯，一部分是比较容易的事情，比如知晓某些投资或政策的后果或可能的后果。

And I don't think anybody will argue that engineers and scientists should speak up about that.

我想不会有人反对，工程师和科学家应当就这些问题发声。

But I think beyond that there's this sense of actually making things, which I do think is very special to engineering.

但我认为在此之上，还有一种"真正去创造东西"的意识，我确实认为这是工程领域的独特之处。

It's really find to talk about things and to discuss, and discuss, and discuss, but at the end of the day you have to have some effect and some kind of impact.

谈论事情，讨论、讨论再讨论，当然很好，但归根结底，你必须要有一些实际效果，产生一些影响。

And engineers are great in doing things.

而工程师们很擅长实际行动。

It's not always right.

结果未必总是对的。

But there's this notion of you kind of have to put it on the line and make something.

但有一种观念是，你必须承担风险， 做出一点东西来。

And that's part of what it means to, I want to say participate in the discussion of how the world should be.

我想说，参与“世界应该是什么样子”的讨论，就带着得去这样做的意味。

You come in and you actually think about how to make it.

你加入进来，你真正去思考如何实现它。

And you try it.

然后你去尝试。

And you never get it right the first time.

你永远不会一次就做对。

And then you make it better.

然后你把它做得更好。

And there needs to be that sense of instrumentality.

这其中需要有一种工具性的意识。

And that's what I think a place like MIT and a place like engineering cultures can add to these discussions.

我认为这正是像 MIT 这样的地方， 以及工程文化，能够为这些讨论增添的东西。

And there needs to be a whole lot more of that.

我们需要更多大量这样的东西。

INTERVIEWER: Is there anything that you haven't had a chance to talk about that we should have touched on as we're wrapping up.

采访者：在我们即将结束之际，有没有什么你还没机会谈到，但我们本应该触及的话题？

ABELSON: Well no, other than I'm constantly humbled and amazed and charged by just the privilege of being in a place like MIT.

ABELSON：嗯，没有了，除了我始终对自己能有幸身处 MIT 这样的地方感到受宠若惊，它如此惊艳， 让我充满动力。

I mean everybody talks about what a unique place it is.

我的意思是，大家都说这是一个多么独特的地方。

But there's just this personal sense of how in hell did I ever end up here, interacting with this group of people?

但我个人总有一种感觉，我到底是怎么能来到这里，与这群人共事的？

So I drive in from Newton every morning.

我每天早上从 Newton 开车过来。

And there's this place where you drive up Commonwealth Avenue and then you sort of turn and go over the BU Bridge.

有一个地方，你沿着联邦大道开车， 然后你转弯，开过波士顿大学桥。

And the BU Bridge sort of looks like this gateway thing.

波士顿大学桥看起来就像是一个大门。

And I say, I can't believe it.

我会说，我简直不敢相信。

It's almost every day, after so many years, I say oh my god, I'm coming to MIT.

几乎每天，这么多年了，我都会说，老天爷， 我要去 MIT 了。

How did I manage to do this?

我是怎么做到的？

How did I get so lucky as to be in a place like this, just surrounded by all of these brilliant people and all of these incredible students?

我是何其有幸能身处这样一个地方， 周围全是这些才华横溢的人， 这些出类拔萃的学生？

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

采访者：好的。

Well, thanks so much Hal.

那么，非常感谢你，Hal。

I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us.

我真的很感激你能抽出时间与我们交流。

ABELSON: Sure.

ABELSON：不客气。

INTERVIEWER: It was wonderful.

采访者：这次谈话很精彩。

Thank you.

谢谢。